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Against Nice Guys
So there have been not one, but two Nice Guy posts on The Face. This is rare for me, because my Face list is pretty small. I don't have a lot of relatives and old friends from high school—you know, the people who normally post right-wing shit and racist forwards—so I get in comparatively few flamewars. Generally speaking, my feed is 40% far-left politics, 20% nerd shit, 10% cute animal pictures, 10% reposts from George Takei (I guess that's nerd shit, but it requires a whole other category owing to its frequency), and 20% pictures of people's kids. (I'm at that age where friends are sprogging, so right now it's like a nursery on there. Don't worry, I'm still not going to reproduce.)
Accordingly, it's surprising to see something irritating enough that I need to say something that I know is going to offend the person who said it, but I'm compelled to do so anyway because they were being Wrong on the Internet. And should know better. Lately, that something has been the revival of Nice Guy Talk.
There's a strong overlap between the people posting nerd shit and Nice Guys. You can draw your own conclusions. I got in a small dust-up a few days ago because someone used the term "friendzone" and I pointed out that if a woman "friendzones" you, it doesn't mean that you're too nice; it means that she doesn't find you attractive but can't find a polite way to tell you that. I mean, I'm sure there are exceptions, and there have been certainly times where I haven't slept with someone because it would ruin a good friendship*, but generally speaking, women who have been conditioned for years to be docile people-pleasers are not going to up and tell a dude that they just don't find him hot. I also mentioned that the guys I've known who refer to themselves as "nice guys" or "good dudes" and complain that women only see them as friends are typically going for conventionally attractive women, and don't see the nice lady who weighs 200 pounds as a potential love interest, regardless of how great a personality she has.
(Weirdly enough, the person who took greatest offense to my comments was a very conventionally attractive woman. At least if her profile picture is to be believed.)
The flipside of Nice Guy whining, of course, is misogyny. Those damn crazy bitches, always falling for assholes and not me. She's just too stupid or evil to know what's good for her. I know what's good for her, and eventually she'll get beat down enough to understand that. In the meantime, I'll be lurking in the background all passive-aggressive like.
Today, though, there was a Nice Guy whine that took the cake:
Dudes. Resentful, sexually frustrated, emotionally stunted dudes and their misguided notions about chivalry. Do they think that women really care about flowers and door-holding if it means that we're going to be treated like second-class citizens? My ideas on historical chivalry and white knights approximate those of Sandor Clegane's on Game of Thrones, and I have even less respect for doughy douchebags in the 21st century who profess those sorts of notions.
The last Cracked.com article on the subject was disappointing, but I did like this line:
My response (after railing for a bit about Nice Guys) was that well-adjusted women find it creepy to be put on a pedestal and prefer partners who treated them to human beings.
And also that some little girls grow up wanting to be dragons.
P.S. Sorry for the heteronormativity of this post. Though I think it really is mostly straight dudes getting on my nerves with this shit.
* But I don't think, in those cases, it could be mistaken for, "I won't sleep with you because you're too nice." It was more, "I won't sleep with you because one or both of us is too immature and it will get weird later."
Accordingly, it's surprising to see something irritating enough that I need to say something that I know is going to offend the person who said it, but I'm compelled to do so anyway because they were being Wrong on the Internet. And should know better. Lately, that something has been the revival of Nice Guy Talk.
There's a strong overlap between the people posting nerd shit and Nice Guys. You can draw your own conclusions. I got in a small dust-up a few days ago because someone used the term "friendzone" and I pointed out that if a woman "friendzones" you, it doesn't mean that you're too nice; it means that she doesn't find you attractive but can't find a polite way to tell you that. I mean, I'm sure there are exceptions, and there have been certainly times where I haven't slept with someone because it would ruin a good friendship*, but generally speaking, women who have been conditioned for years to be docile people-pleasers are not going to up and tell a dude that they just don't find him hot. I also mentioned that the guys I've known who refer to themselves as "nice guys" or "good dudes" and complain that women only see them as friends are typically going for conventionally attractive women, and don't see the nice lady who weighs 200 pounds as a potential love interest, regardless of how great a personality she has.
(Weirdly enough, the person who took greatest offense to my comments was a very conventionally attractive woman. At least if her profile picture is to be believed.)
The flipside of Nice Guy whining, of course, is misogyny. Those damn crazy bitches, always falling for assholes and not me. She's just too stupid or evil to know what's good for her. I know what's good for her, and eventually she'll get beat down enough to understand that. In the meantime, I'll be lurking in the background all passive-aggressive like.
Today, though, there was a Nice Guy whine that took the cake:
Dudes. Resentful, sexually frustrated, emotionally stunted dudes and their misguided notions about chivalry. Do they think that women really care about flowers and door-holding if it means that we're going to be treated like second-class citizens? My ideas on historical chivalry and white knights approximate those of Sandor Clegane's on Game of Thrones, and I have even less respect for doughy douchebags in the 21st century who profess those sorts of notions.
The last Cracked.com article on the subject was disappointing, but I did like this line:
They mix up a batch of Ideal Mate and pour it into a you-shaped pitcher. It's usually an updated version of the Victorian elegant creature -- noble, graceful and more boring than a box of rocks, which are at least capable of hurting people.
My response (after railing for a bit about Nice Guys) was that well-adjusted women find it creepy to be put on a pedestal and prefer partners who treated them to human beings.
And also that some little girls grow up wanting to be dragons.
P.S. Sorry for the heteronormativity of this post. Though I think it really is mostly straight dudes getting on my nerves with this shit.
* But I don't think, in those cases, it could be mistaken for, "I won't sleep with you because you're too nice." It was more, "I won't sleep with you because one or both of us is too immature and it will get weird later."
no subject
NewsFlash, Knight Guy: if women really wanted to date assholes, they'd be lining up for you.
I think it's really appropriate that this guy is holding himself out as a "knight of old" because the reality is that "knights of old" were pretty horrific. Also I love the cut-off bit where he's all "you shouldn't reject me just cause I'm ugly". because you know, I'm sure he's interested in finding a "princess" who isn't conventionally gorgeous.
As an aside, I don't actually think that the Heartless Bitches piece is very accurate w/r/t Nice Guys. I don't think Nice Guys are necessarily insecure, nor do I think there is only one set of Nice Guy actions. I don't think they often are as sincere as the author suggests - that they really worship the particular woman they're pursuing. I think they resent the woman for having something they want.
To me, the hallmark of a Nice Guy is acting "nice" because he thinks it's some kind of quid pro quo that entitles him to a girl (as opposed to because he's actually a nice person, or wants to do the right thing). And then gets pissy and hostile if it does not win over the girl in question. General whining about women a la Knight Guy above is also the hallmark of the Nice Guy. But what his psychological problem is that causes him to act this way - insecurity, sociopathy, general assholeness - is irrelevant.
no subject
I don't think they often are as sincere as the author suggests - that they really worship the particular woman they're pursuing. I think they resent the woman for having something they want.
I agree. They tend to go from 0 to MRA pretty fast, at least online. There's more than simple insecurity at work.