Against Nice Guys

[sabotabby]

So there have been not one, but two Nice Guy posts on The Face. This is rare for me, because my Face list is pretty small. I don't have a lot of relatives and old friends from high school—you know, the people who normally post right-wing shit and racist forwards—so I get in comparatively few flamewars. Generally speaking, my feed is 40% far-left politics, 20% nerd shit, 10% cute animal pictures, 10% reposts from George Takei (I guess that's nerd shit, but it requires a whole other category owing to its frequency), and 20% pictures of people's kids. (I'm at that age where friends are sprogging, so right now it's like a nursery on there. Don't worry, I'm still not going to reproduce.)

Accordingly, it's surprising to see something irritating enough that I need to say something that I know is going to offend the person who said it, but I'm compelled to do so anyway because they were being Wrong on the Internet. And should know better. Lately, that something has been the revival of Nice Guy Talk.



There's a strong overlap between the people posting nerd shit and Nice Guys. You can draw your own conclusions. I got in a small dust-up a few days ago because someone used the term "friendzone" and I pointed out that if a woman "friendzones" you, it doesn't mean that you're too nice; it means that she doesn't find you attractive but can't find a polite way to tell you that. I mean, I'm sure there are exceptions, and there have been certainly times where I haven't slept with someone because it would ruin a good friendship*, but generally speaking, women who have been conditioned for years to be docile people-pleasers are not going to up and tell a dude that they just don't find him hot. I also mentioned that the guys I've known who refer to themselves as "nice guys" or "good dudes" and complain that women only see them as friends are typically going for conventionally attractive women, and don't see the nice lady who weighs 200 pounds as a potential love interest, regardless of how great a personality she has.

(Weirdly enough, the person who took greatest offense to my comments was a very conventionally attractive woman. At least if her profile picture is to be believed.)

The flipside of Nice Guy whining, of course, is misogyny. Those damn crazy bitches, always falling for assholes and not me. She's just too stupid or evil to know what's good for her. I know what's good for her, and eventually she'll get beat down enough to understand that. In the meantime, I'll be lurking in the background all passive-aggressive like.

Today, though, there was a Nice Guy whine that took the cake:



Dudes. Resentful, sexually frustrated, emotionally stunted dudes and their misguided notions about chivalry. Do they think that women really care about flowers and door-holding if it means that we're going to be treated like second-class citizens? My ideas on historical chivalry and white knights approximate those of Sandor Clegane's on Game of Thrones, and I have even less respect for doughy douchebags in the 21st century who profess those sorts of notions.

The last Cracked.com article on the subject was disappointing, but I did like this line:

They mix up a batch of Ideal Mate and pour it into a you-shaped pitcher. It's usually an updated version of the Victorian elegant creature -- noble, graceful and more boring than a box of rocks, which are at least capable of hurting people.

My response (after railing for a bit about Nice Guys) was that well-adjusted women find it creepy to be put on a pedestal and prefer partners who treated them to human beings.

And also that some little girls grow up wanting to be dragons.

P.S. Sorry for the heteronormativity of this post. Though I think it really is mostly straight dudes getting on my nerves with this shit.

* But I don't think, in those cases, it could be mistaken for, "I won't sleep with you because you're too nice." It was more, "I won't sleep with you because one or both of us is too immature and it will get weird later."

Comments

[sabotabby]

I had to share. Not on FB, because too many people would agree, apparently. But it made me vomit and other people should know so they can sympathize.

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

also, pretty sure the Knights Of Old were not really about RESCUING women.

[rackletang.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I seriously just blinked for about fifteen seconds when I read that. Um... thanks? I'm sure if I'm in a pickle, I'd love to take on some of your issues too there, Galahad. WTFF.

[sabotabby]

I seriously did want to be a dragon. And still kind of do.

[misslynx.livejournal.com]

When I was a little girl, I would totally have preferred being a dragon to being either a princess or a knight. Although mainly I wanted to be Catwoman.

[culpster.livejournal.com]

Oh so this is a thing. I have a FB friend who does this sometimes and I'm like, grow up. But not to his face/wall. Maybe I should start.

I used to have a unique (?) variation on this complex which ran something like, 'I am a great guy and have been roundly rejected, therefore rejection is a badge of superiority, therefore I want nothing to do with any club who would have me for a member.' It sounds nuts but I'm probably still living down the ramifications of this bent pretzel of a coping strategy. It's dark with your head up that ass. Can't count the opportunities I missed from it. Score one for being old.

[sabotabby]

Oh so this is a thing. I have a FB friend who does this sometimes and I'm like, grow up. But not to his face/wall. Maybe I should start.

My social circle is just incestuous enough that I wonder if it's the same friend. Probably not, though. I think all of our mutual friends are too cool for that.

I used to have a unique (?) variation on this complex which ran something like, 'I am a great guy and have been roundly rejected, therefore rejection is a badge of superiority, therefore I want nothing to do with any club who would have me for a member.'

I fall victim to this too, which is maybe why I bristle so much at the Nice Guy shit. I mean, I have been rejected a lot, and at the formative age where this shit matters. Lots of early resentment that I had to work out and sometimes realize is not entirely worked out. Blah blah, nerd pride.

[curgoth]

Princesses don't need you to rescue them, man. Go save yourself. You can't save anyone with your penis. It's not a sword and it's not a lance, and swooping in to save someone from depression or a bad day because you want to shag them doesn't make you a noble knight, it makes you Just Another Predator. So go jerk off to a renn fest magazine or a D&D book, then come back when you can do something useful, like offer your support without strings attached.

[sabotabby]

Hahahaha. True, and with some great mental images to boot.

[xturtle.livejournal.com]

Holy crap, if a dude thinks I need rescuing - unless I am literally tied to railroad tracks with no means of freeing myself and a train approaching - then he is a complete douchecanoe. I do not date douchecanoes. They creep me out.

[sabotabby]

Douchecanoe. I like that. It leaks too much to paddle very far.

[ironed_orchid]

Wow, that knight in shining armor thing is repugnant and straight from the school of "girls are bitches because they won't fuck me".

I never wanted to be a princess (well, not until I had a book about princess who ran away to become a kitchen maid because she was no good at princessy things). I mostly wanted to be a sailor or an explorer.

[sabotabby]

I was never into the princess thing either (I'm not kidding about the dragon thing). I wanted to be an astronaut or marine biologist or something.

[akisawana.livejournal.com]

Nice Guys suck. They remind me of those video games where you do enough quests to earn enough Relationship Points for sex. Every time I see stuff about them on the internet, I'm glad I hooked up with my nice guy (who is not a Nice Guy, but rather what Nice Guys think they are) because otherwise I would have totally fallen into their traps.

Which is probably why the meme persists; when a girl enters the dating scene with her only model of healthy relationships being TV, their superficial niceness and undercurrent of expectations seems normal. And since a lack of decent male role models frequently leads to low self-esteem enough of those girls assume the problem is with them rather than the Nice Guy.

Not that I have any evidence for the above, but it at least makes sense. To me. At one in the morning.

[sabotabby]

It makes sense to me too. In a way that makes me shudder.

[misslynx.livejournal.com]

I so hate the whole "Nice Guy" complex, for all the reasons everyone has already stated.

And the "friendzone" thing even more. The idea behind that one seems to be that being sexually attracted to someone or not is somehow a thing women are in full conscious control over, so if a women for some unfathomable reason fails to be attracted to them, it's something she's doing on purpose because she's stupid/shallow/an evil bitch/etc. As opposed to just, you know, not attracted to them.

Although I suppose an alternative explanation would be that women's attraction or lack thereof to any particular man is irrelevant - that we're supposed to decide who to date and/or sleep with purely on the basis of whether they have earned access to us through some mysterious set of criteria we're not even privy to, but which apparently include a combination of self-proclaimed "niceness", passive-aggressive behaviour, and an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. Whether we actually want to have sex with them or not doesn't matter - we're prizes, not people.

[sabotabby]

Insert favours, receive sex. It's a pure equation with these people. Given our culture, it makes sense, but it's really disgusting and not at all nice.

[fluffworld.livejournal.com]

According to my Mum, as a small child I used to fantasise about a knight coming along to rescue me so I could take his horse.

[sabotabby]

Ooooh, I like that one.

[(Anonymous)]

I can't stand history nostalgia. Knights probably worked for the rich, were corrupt as hell, used their strength and power to manipulate, and likely ignored the poor unless they were raping poor young women. YEA COME SAVE ME ASSHOLE.

(Sorry for the delete/repost but I shouldn't swear on a public post logged-in)

[sabotabby]

(Sorry for the delete/repost but I shouldn't swear on a public post logged-in)

Really?!

[frilled-shark.livejournal.com]

Also, that macro is hideous. Way too much tiny text. I thought macros were supposed to be snappy and funny and all I see here is words words words.

[sabotabby]

It got cut off, too. There's actually more type but it's truncated. It gets whinier.

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

omg the knight thing is so gross, i can't even.

NewsFlash, Knight Guy: if women really wanted to date assholes, they'd be lining up for you.

I think it's really appropriate that this guy is holding himself out as a "knight of old" because the reality is that "knights of old" were pretty horrific. Also I love the cut-off bit where he's all "you shouldn't reject me just cause I'm ugly". because you know, I'm sure he's interested in finding a "princess" who isn't conventionally gorgeous.

As an aside, I don't actually think that the Heartless Bitches piece is very accurate w/r/t Nice Guys. I don't think Nice Guys are necessarily insecure, nor do I think there is only one set of Nice Guy actions. I don't think they often are as sincere as the author suggests - that they really worship the particular woman they're pursuing. I think they resent the woman for having something they want.

To me, the hallmark of a Nice Guy is acting "nice" because he thinks it's some kind of quid pro quo that entitles him to a girl (as opposed to because he's actually a nice person, or wants to do the right thing). And then gets pissy and hostile if it does not win over the girl in question. General whining about women a la Knight Guy above is also the hallmark of the Nice Guy. But what his psychological problem is that causes him to act this way - insecurity, sociopathy, general assholeness - is irrelevant.

[sabotabby]

It cuts off at the "you should like me even though I'm fugly" bit, but the whine continues. And it's just as bad.

I don't think they often are as sincere as the author suggests - that they really worship the particular woman they're pursuing. I think they resent the woman for having something they want.

I agree. They tend to go from 0 to MRA pretty fast, at least online. There's more than simple insecurity at work.

[rohmie.livejournal.com]

Speaking of princesses ...

[sabotabby]

Have you seen it? I was so excited for Pixar to do a movie with a female lead, but I keep hearing that it ain't all that.

[firecat]

Dude. Stop pointing that lance at me.

[sabotabby]

It's a bit threatening, especially with the dizzying motion blur, no?

[kryss-labryn.livejournal.com]

Dear Nice Guys (who are being ignored);

Sex is not a commodity. It is something that two people who are mutually (that is a key word) attracted to each other do together. And as soon as you decide that it is something your friend "who is only attracted to assholes" owes you for all the wonderful things you have done for her-- being there for her, etc etc-- then you've just turned her into a prostitute who is willing to barter.

As soon as you decide that sex is "owed" to you then you go from being a friend who is helping her out and hanging out with her because you like her and enjoy her company, to a john who is hoping he won't have to actually pay cash.

Now, imagine how attractive that makes you in her eyes.

Now, think of your best guy friend. You know, the one you hang out with and drink beers and play video games and shit. Hey, if he needed help with something you'd totally be there, right? And if you were stuck he'd totally have your back. He's the guy who comes over and gets drunk with you and listens to you bitch when you get dumped.

Now, imagine that he was being so awesome and "there" for you because actually, he wanted to fuck you. And dammit, you pretty much owed it to him by now, right? I mean, he's put up with listening to you go on and on about how women were all ball-breaking bitches, right? I mean, fuck, why did you think he was always there for you? God, what kind of an asshole are you being that you won't just fucking bend over for him?

Well? Fucking bend over!!

What's that? You aren't into him "that way"? He's just an awesome friend, don't be gross?

Exactly.

[sabotabby]

Awesome Letter to Entities Unlikely To Respond is awesome.

[nichtsda.livejournal.com]

I would totally give it up for nice guys if they just offered me weak, awkward back rubs.

[sabotabby]

Hahaha, me too.

[montreality.livejournal.com]

It has been my experience that men who refer to themselves as "Nice Guy" are usually bitter assholes. Nothing less attractive than a bitter person who holds grudges against women, society, etc. never pausing to think that the source of the problem could be them..

[sabotabby]

I vacillate between "genuinely well-intentioned but social awkward" and "bitter assholes," leaning towards the latter, especially the online ones.

[db-en.livejournal.com]

Are you a well-adjusted woman, sabotabby?

[sabotabby]

Can't you tell? I want to be a dragon.