Against Nice Guys
Jun. 24th, 2012 09:01 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sabotabbySo there have been not one, but two Nice Guy posts on The Face. This is rare for me, because my Face list is pretty small. I don't have a lot of relatives and old friends from high school—you know, the people who normally post right-wing shit and racist forwards—so I get in comparatively few flamewars. Generally speaking, my feed is 40% far-left politics, 20% nerd shit, 10% cute animal pictures, 10% reposts from George Takei (I guess that's nerd shit, but it requires a whole other category owing to its frequency), and 20% pictures of people's kids. (I'm at that age where friends are sprogging, so right now it's like a nursery on there. Don't worry, I'm still not going to reproduce.)
Accordingly, it's surprising to see something irritating enough that I need to say something that I know is going to offend the person who said it, but I'm compelled to do so anyway because they were being Wrong on the Internet. And should know better. Lately, that something has been the revival of Nice Guy Talk.
There's a strong overlap between the people posting nerd shit and Nice Guys. You can draw your own conclusions. I got in a small dust-up a few days ago because someone used the term "friendzone" and I pointed out that if a woman "friendzones" you, it doesn't mean that you're too nice; it means that she doesn't find you attractive but can't find a polite way to tell you that. I mean, I'm sure there are exceptions, and there have been certainly times where I haven't slept with someone because it would ruin a good friendship*, but generally speaking, women who have been conditioned for years to be docile people-pleasers are not going to up and tell a dude that they just don't find him hot. I also mentioned that the guys I've known who refer to themselves as "nice guys" or "good dudes" and complain that women only see them as friends are typically going for conventionally attractive women, and don't see the nice lady who weighs 200 pounds as a potential love interest, regardless of how great a personality she has.
(Weirdly enough, the person who took greatest offense to my comments was a very conventionally attractive woman. At least if her profile picture is to be believed.)
The flipside of Nice Guy whining, of course, is misogyny. Those damn crazy bitches, always falling for assholes and not me. She's just too stupid or evil to know what's good for her. I know what's good for her, and eventually she'll get beat down enough to understand that. In the meantime, I'll be lurking in the background all passive-aggressive like.
Today, though, there was a Nice Guy whine that took the cake:
Dudes. Resentful, sexually frustrated, emotionally stunted dudes and their misguided notions about chivalry. Do they think that women really care about flowers and door-holding if it means that we're going to be treated like second-class citizens? My ideas on historical chivalry and white knights approximate those of Sandor Clegane's on Game of Thrones, and I have even less respect for doughy douchebags in the 21st century who profess those sorts of notions.
The last Cracked.com article on the subject was disappointing, but I did like this line:
My response (after railing for a bit about Nice Guys) was that well-adjusted women find it creepy to be put on a pedestal and prefer partners who treated them to human beings.
And also that some little girls grow up wanting to be dragons.
P.S. Sorry for the heteronormativity of this post. Though I think it really is mostly straight dudes getting on my nerves with this shit.
* But I don't think, in those cases, it could be mistaken for, "I won't sleep with you because you're too nice." It was more, "I won't sleep with you because one or both of us is too immature and it will get weird later."
Accordingly, it's surprising to see something irritating enough that I need to say something that I know is going to offend the person who said it, but I'm compelled to do so anyway because they were being Wrong on the Internet. And should know better. Lately, that something has been the revival of Nice Guy Talk.
There's a strong overlap between the people posting nerd shit and Nice Guys. You can draw your own conclusions. I got in a small dust-up a few days ago because someone used the term "friendzone" and I pointed out that if a woman "friendzones" you, it doesn't mean that you're too nice; it means that she doesn't find you attractive but can't find a polite way to tell you that. I mean, I'm sure there are exceptions, and there have been certainly times where I haven't slept with someone because it would ruin a good friendship*, but generally speaking, women who have been conditioned for years to be docile people-pleasers are not going to up and tell a dude that they just don't find him hot. I also mentioned that the guys I've known who refer to themselves as "nice guys" or "good dudes" and complain that women only see them as friends are typically going for conventionally attractive women, and don't see the nice lady who weighs 200 pounds as a potential love interest, regardless of how great a personality she has.
(Weirdly enough, the person who took greatest offense to my comments was a very conventionally attractive woman. At least if her profile picture is to be believed.)
The flipside of Nice Guy whining, of course, is misogyny. Those damn crazy bitches, always falling for assholes and not me. She's just too stupid or evil to know what's good for her. I know what's good for her, and eventually she'll get beat down enough to understand that. In the meantime, I'll be lurking in the background all passive-aggressive like.
Today, though, there was a Nice Guy whine that took the cake:
Dudes. Resentful, sexually frustrated, emotionally stunted dudes and their misguided notions about chivalry. Do they think that women really care about flowers and door-holding if it means that we're going to be treated like second-class citizens? My ideas on historical chivalry and white knights approximate those of Sandor Clegane's on Game of Thrones, and I have even less respect for doughy douchebags in the 21st century who profess those sorts of notions.
The last Cracked.com article on the subject was disappointing, but I did like this line:
They mix up a batch of Ideal Mate and pour it into a you-shaped pitcher. It's usually an updated version of the Victorian elegant creature -- noble, graceful and more boring than a box of rocks, which are at least capable of hurting people.
My response (after railing for a bit about Nice Guys) was that well-adjusted women find it creepy to be put on a pedestal and prefer partners who treated them to human beings.
And also that some little girls grow up wanting to be dragons.
P.S. Sorry for the heteronormativity of this post. Though I think it really is mostly straight dudes getting on my nerves with this shit.
* But I don't think, in those cases, it could be mistaken for, "I won't sleep with you because you're too nice." It was more, "I won't sleep with you because one or both of us is too immature and it will get weird later."
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Date: 2012-06-27 01:56 am (UTC)Sex is not a commodity. It is something that two people who are mutually (that is a key word) attracted to each other do together. And as soon as you decide that it is something your friend "who is only attracted to assholes" owes you for all the wonderful things you have done for her-- being there for her, etc etc-- then you've just turned her into a prostitute who is willing to barter.
As soon as you decide that sex is "owed" to you then you go from being a friend who is helping her out and hanging out with her because you like her and enjoy her company, to a john who is hoping he won't have to actually pay cash.
Now, imagine how attractive that makes you in her eyes.
Now, think of your best guy friend. You know, the one you hang out with and drink beers and play video games and shit. Hey, if he needed help with something you'd totally be there, right? And if you were stuck he'd totally have your back. He's the guy who comes over and gets drunk with you and listens to you bitch when you get dumped.
Now, imagine that he was being so awesome and "there" for you because actually, he wanted to fuck you. And dammit, you pretty much owed it to him by now, right? I mean, he's put up with listening to you go on and on about how women were all ball-breaking bitches, right? I mean, fuck, why did you think he was always there for you? God, what kind of an asshole are you being that you won't just fucking bend over for him?
Well? Fucking bend over!!
What's that? You aren't into him "that way"? He's just an awesome friend, don't be gross?
Exactly.
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Date: 2012-07-03 11:43 pm (UTC)It was Sabotabby's post and the excellent comments here that finally allowed my long-term irritation with the Nice Guy Syndrome to finally gel enough to be articulated. :-)