Why

[sabotabby]

Do governments think loyalty oaths are effective? Is it some sort of holdover from when people thought that magic words had some sort of supernatural power?

If I were, uh, disloyal, I'd just lie, because magic words are meaningless, and because I'm being forced to do so. In fact, I implicitly lie about a magical song every morning.

Comments

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

Canada also has a loyalty oath for new citizens and it's explicitly royalist.

[cannibal-x.livejournal.com]

Yup, that's what I was going to say too!

[kadath.livejournal.com]

This is part of why I was glad to find out I have birthright citizenship through my mother. It's a lot less paperwork to get my SIN, and no loyalty oath!

[springheel-jack.livejournal.com]

jealous! my closest canadian relative is an uncle by marriage.

[lienne.livejournal.com]

The funny thing is, I take promises seriously, but the magic words lose all their power when somebody else is making you say them. So it doesn't even work for people who have integrity!

[corwin77.livejournal.com]

I know the song you're talking about, I sing it too: I Want Candy by Bow wow Wow

[symbioid.livejournal.com]

One should never ever ever lie about wanting candy. Ever.

[krinndnz.livejournal.com]

They're effective, just not to the extent that governments imagine. Human cognitive biases to the rescue! Hah. Like a lot of things that the US government does, loyalty oaths are a sterling example of penny-wise pound-foolish.

[laughingimp.livejournal.com]

As a tool to indoctrinate schoolchildren into blind nationalism, I can't argue against the Pledge's effectiveness. I have made numberous posts, on LJ and elsewhere, about the US Pledge of Allegiance and why I find it incredibly sketchy, not to mention contrary to the US Constitution and the Ten Commandments.

[dglenn.livejournal.com]

And, IIRC, not even originally intended to be US-specific! Wasn't the original phrasing, "I pledge allegiance to my flag ...," and meant to be usable elsewhere? Or have I gotten confused by the multiple edits to the pledge?

[laughingimp.livejournal.com]

"My flag" was the original wording of the pledge, and it was later amended so there could be no confusion as to which flag any new immigrants were saluting. (I thought this was Teddy Roosevelt and his boys--he certainly said enough similar-sounding things--but Wikipedia puts that change at 1923, long after he was gone.)

I'd never heard that it wasn't supposed to be US-specific, though it could have been.

[misslynx.livejournal.com]

Oaths actually are meaningful to me, and I held off on getting Canadian citizenship for a really long time because of not wanting to take the oath to the Queen. But eventually the political situation in the US got so ugly that the idea of remaining a US citizen, even if it was by default because I'd never had to take an oath to that country (apart from probably having had to say the Pledge of Allegiance in grade 1, but I didn't really have the same perspective on oaths then), seemed even less appealing than having to take an oath to an overseas ruler to whom I felt no actual loyalty whatsoever.

So I applied (this would be about six years ago now, I think), but as the day of the ceremony came closer, I was feeling really stressed about the whole oath thing. My mom helpfully told me she just crossed her fingers behind her back, grade-school-style, when she said hers, but that didn't seem quite enough to me.

What ended up resolving the tension for me, curiously enough, was deciding which of my BPAL perfume oils to wear for the day, and settling on Coyote. Because that got my mind wandering during the very long wait before the ceremony into thoughts of how the mythical Coyote would handle a situation like this, and that in turn gave me the idea that maybe the most constructive way to look at "loyalty" to a political leader is as an obligation to keep a watchful eye on them and try to keep them honest, take them down a peg or two when they need it, etc. Because really, that's what they need more than blind obedience, even though it might not be what they want. I don't know, it made sense in my Coyote-influenced thoughts at the time...

[sabotabby]

Best response.

Now I want a WWCD bracelet.

[misslynx.livejournal.com]

I would so wear one of those. Although I suspect it might get me into trouble on a regular basis, at least if I used it as an actual guideline for behavior very often.

[springheel-jack.livejournal.com]

The US oath is particularly strange.

[lemur-man.livejournal.com]

I dunno. Having people swear an oath before testifying in court doesn't exactly prevent perjury either.

[sugarmommaless.livejournal.com]

The government recently forced me to re-sign mine or resign.
It was creepy.
I did it, but my heart wasn't in it.

[frandroid.livejournal.com]

Why did they? If you don't mind me asking.

[sugarmommaless.livejournal.com]

They claimed that it was because my personnel file moved over from another government agency/department, but I don't beleive it because I've done that 2x before and they didn't make me do it then. I think it's because of some activism that I am involved in. I also got a letter that implied "be careful or we will fire you" and I had to get advice from the union about it.
It pretty much sucks to work for Big Brother. Fortunately, 1) the benefits are good and 2) I have alternative plans.

[deanarae.livejournal.com]

This post reminded me of something funny: When my cousin's husband became a Canadian citizen, he had to swear allegiance to the Queen of England. We thought this was fairly hysterical given that his previous citizenship had been English.

[laughingimp.livejournal.com]

Is it some sort of holdover from when people thought that magic words had some sort of supernatural power?

I was thinking some more about this. The primary issue I have with the Pledge is constitutional: the "under God" bit is contrary to the separation of Church and State. It was put there by President Eisenhower after pressure from the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic outfit. And Catholics certainly believe that magic words have supernatural power.

Side note: as a Pagan, I also have a certain amount of respect for the power of magic words, power derived from the sort of subconscious mindset-building that happens when a phrase is repeated over and over again.

Of course, if you're aware enough to know propaganda when you see it, then those words have little or no power.