Dress codes

[sabotabby]

So if you've been out of school for awhile (or maybe it doesn't happen in other countries like it does in North America), you may not know that dress codes are a big thing. As soon as the weather turns, the harassment starts. Girls (and while the odd boy gets coded over a pot leaf graphic or baggy pants, it's girls 90% of the time) get sent up to the office, get phone calls home, get sent home in some cases, over what they're wearing. Teachers are ordered to scrutinize every item covering each teenage body to determine if skirts and tops are long enough, if necklines are too low, if bra straps are too prominent. For teachers like me, who have zero interest in looking at teenage bodies and were raised to be polite and look at people's faces and not their asses, it's a situation that can range from awkward to my feminist principles are in conflict with my job.

By the way, the heteronormative, cisnormative, misogynist, victim-blaming thing where administrators tell young girls that their clothing is distracting the boys happens in pretty much every school as far as I know. I don't know if they teach that in principal school or what, but it's not an aberration. You'd think, because we are supposed to teach responsibility, the emphasis would be on the boys (or, hey, maybe girls are attracted to other girls, or not everyone identifies as one or the other, and by the way to teenagers everything is distracting and it doesn't actually matter what you wear) to keep their eyes in their own heads, but it's always the slut-shaming. Always.

(If you're wondering, I don't enforce a dress code. I do tell the boys to take off their hats, because it is an obviously visible thing if an admin walks in, and also because baseball caps are fugly. And if I can see a kid's entire ass, I will tell him to pull up his pants. But I do not feel comfortable telling a girl that her bra strap shouldn't show, because I feel like my bra strap shows a lot of the time and it's no biggie.)

There have been a bunch of good articles lately about dress codes in schools, but this is my favourite thus far:

It really bothers me how schools insist that girls wear bras (this starts at, like, age 8-14 when girls start budding. Many girls and/or their moms have embarrassing stories of female teachers quietly pulling them aside, and delicately suggesting that she get a training bra), but then simultaneously decree that bra straps are inappropriate. This is like insisting all boys must wear socks, but the tops of socks sticking out of the shoes are inappropriate.  It’s just… so arbitrary.
...

It’s yet another reminder, and reinforcement, that a girl’s appearance is more important, and demands more attention, than her other, non-visible qualities. You know, qualities like intelligence, perseverance, athletic ability, tenacity, creativity, a hard work ethic… attention to those attributes seem fade away rather quickly once an inch of skin is exposed.

Instead, it teaches her to view herself in a sexualized gaze, from an outsider’s point of view. At an increasingly young age, getting dressed in the morning turns from “does teal clash with yellow?” to “is this too much shoulder? Can someone see down this shirt? Would someone be able to look up this skirt on the stairs? What happens when I sit or bend over? I should test that.”

Anyway, the whole thing is worth a read, as is the link to Impression, which is an excellent photo essay about the impressions that clothes leave on women's bodies. I'm sort of tired of the argument where I work. Weirdly, Colleague Who Shall Not Be Named, not known for his progressive views in general, actually said some of the things I was thinking at the last staff meeting, which is that the adult obsession with teenage bodies is fucking creepy.

This is our culture, though. This is how we're raising young people to think—that girls are objects to be viewed, scrutinized, judged, that boys are the ones doing the watching, and if one doesn't see the connection to more violent forms of misogyny, one isn't paying enough attention.

Comments

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

I read a tumblr post recently from a girl in HS protesting her school's dress code.

http://dirtyoldgentleman.com/post/87111262407/sobasicallyroosterteeth-my-school-recently

[sabotabby]

That girl is a hero.

[kingtycoon.livejournal.com]

I remember when the boys would get detentions when their shoes and belts didn't match or when they had the wrong knot in their tie. Where I went the boys faced way more demerits than the girls, but the rules for the girls were way less arcane. It seems like the standards for boys are just lowest common denominator - just enough to get you into a 7-11 that isn't in Florida.

[sabotabby]

Shoes and shirt, basically. They're only ever called up if their shirt says something offensive, and even then it doesn't happen very often. I don't care, I'm all for relaxing dress codes, but boys dress terribly these days. However, I recognize that I am an old fart who rather wishes that people would be more stylish, but I don't inflict my preferences on the kids. ;)

[princealberic.livejournal.com]

I definitely think young men dress terribly these days and I'm totally not an old fart. I wish they'd dress better because maybe then I'd actually be able to say that I ever had a boyfriend, and also so I could buy clothes that fit me and don't suck for when I don't want to wear dresses. :(

[robby.livejournal.com]

I sometimes wonder if school is meant to socialize kids, using a guise of education. Kids conform, follow the rules and ultimately they will be deemed good potential employees.

[sabotabby]

It definitely is, and in some ways I think it's a laudable goal (not making them into docile employees, but teaching them situation-specific behaviour and how to get along with others).

[frandroid.livejournal.com]

Chomsky still talks about his shock of going from an alternative Hebrew school to the public school system. :) The answer is yes, that's the point what with tabby says above me.

[robby.livejournal.com]

I started public school in 7th grade, and all the kids laughed when I got out of my seat and stood to answer a teacher's question. Until then, in Catholic school, it was uniforms and discipline, and I was years ahead academically.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

One of th things I liked about the school where I worked was that we relatively* downplayed the dress code, and emphasized quietly talking to students about their clothing if necessary rather than punishing and shaming them. I personally ignored it, because, but very few teachers and admins got into enforcing it and most of the staff looked askance at those who did. And I'm reasonably sure no student would have been excused from punishment for inappropriate touching because of what another was wearing (I sure hope so, at the least).

*: it still existed, and was stupid, but it could have been worse and I hope it doesn't get there.

[sabotabby]

Presumably, most teachers don't actually send kids up for dress codes in my school. That's why the admin keeps telling us to. One of my friends quietly loans them t-shirts for the day. I still prefer to ignore it.

[princealberic.livejournal.com]

Dress codes in North America are so bizarre to me. I'm pretty sure we don't have that here (except in privately-owned schools, like Catholic schools or something) because starting when I was 11 or 12, my classmates would wear brightly-coloured thongs sticking out of their jeans and the boys would wear sweaters with stoner graphics on them and nobody cared, even in the best and most posh school I attended. I do find it really weird/creepy when teenagers, or anyone of any age, walks around with their underwear showing, it just looks sort of ugly and it's called underwear for a reason.

Complaining over bra straps sounds so WTF, though! My bra straps show all the damn time and I still remember when I took my high school Maths exam, I was sitting there in a top that definitely didn't match my bra straps and not a single fuck was given.

I know that a lot of teachers do complain about the girls dressing in a "slutty" way (wtf is that even) because I've overheard conversations like that from my parents' colleagues and I think teachers have commented on it once or twice, but other than that, they don't really have rules to enforce it. I think the only actual rule is to take off hats in the classroom, but that's just because it's considered polite, not because of sexuality and it goes for anyone regardless of gender (and yes, baseball caps are so damn ugly. Especially the ones that have a net-like fabric at the back, ew).

You're the best teacher ever, though, GO YOU. *high fives*

[sabotabby]

We're overly obsessed with sexualizing teenagers and pre-teens in North America. That's the only explanation for the bra strap thing.

IDGAF about hats on a personal level, because hey I'm Jewish and it's polite for us to cover our heads and I think the "polite" thing is very culturally specific, but it's not a hill I wish to die on. Especially with how ugly baseball caps are.

[princealberic.livejournal.com]

Eh, I think we're overly obsessed with sexualising teenagers here too. As a teenager, I got harassed by creepy dudes a lot, and there's a lot of slut-shaming, excusing assault and harassment, etc. going on that ends up affecting teenagers as well. I suspect the reason why we don't have very strict dress codes and what's ok is mainly up to specific teachers and administrations is because most schools just don't bother, not because they're not sexualising these kids and freaking out over visible bra straps, but because they're lazy.

That's a good point that politeness is culturally-specific. Keeping our heads covered can be considered polite but it depends on what you have on your head (and gender, I suppose), and it's also context-specific. I'll try to explain this better while keeping it brief, but it has a lot to do with past history and Catholicism and stuff.

If you read old novels, you'll notice that characters tend to have a reaction similar to your icon's when they run into another character who is outside and doesn't have their heads covered, so in a sense it was a sign of modesty and politeness.

However, in a Catholic church, wearing a head scarf is considered modest but wearing a hat is not. Probably because if you're wearing a hat you're basically showing off your pimp hat in a setting where humility is supposed to be emphasised? I don't really know. I don't know how it used to be in the 19th century and such, but most old people I've seen in Mass will remove their hats and if they're women they'll wear scarves on their heads (nobody really does the latter nowadays unless they're old, though, or I guess unless they miss pointless arcane traditions).

I think it's similar for hats. In a classroom, it's a setting where you're supposed to show respect, so you have to take off your hat (this goes for both genders). I once had a teacher tell off a classmate about it and explain it was because of the crucifix hanging on the wall, but I haven't seen classrooms with crucifixes in them since elementary school and that's still considered polite, so I think it's just a way of showing respect for the setting. I'm not too sure.

So it's mainly based on the situation and what sort of hat you're wearing. If you watch TV shows/movies set in older time periods, you'll also notice characters taking off their hats as a sign of respect in different situations (or doing that super cool greeting where they tip their top hat, best greeting ever, let's bring it back).

I consider baseball caps to be disrepectful in any situation because they're ugly so they're disrespecting my eyes.

Personally, I'd have no problem with people wearing hats in every situation as long as they were cool hats like top hats and bowler hats. I keep suggesting that we should wear them, especially since it's so sunny here in the summer that it would come in handy, but nobody seems to listen to me and people keep wearing ugly caps instead. I feel like I should create some sort of movement for cool clothes, to campaign for more top hats that should not be removed under any circumstances except to wash your hair, simply because I think top hats are stylish as fuck.

[(Anonymous)]

ALL GIRLS IN SCHOOL SHOULD WEAR THE BLACK & YELLOW CLASSIC KITTY PRYDE OUTFIT

[sabotabby]

Okay, this would be fair. Only if the boys and kids who don't fall into the gender binary have that as an option too, though.

[the_axel]

Don't discriminate. All students should wear the black and yellow classic Kitty Pryde outfit.

Principals, VPs and other admin staff should dress like Cyclops 'cos he's the dull one.

Teachers should dress like Magneto.

Except sabotabby, she should dress like Morning Star aka Marya Meshkov because, ummm, reasons. :-)

[sabotabby]

Are you kidding? My boobs would fall right out of that.

[the_axel]

And the problem with that, from my POV, is....?

[frandroid.livejournal.com]

+1

[mad-bertha.livejournal.com]

This reminds me of the school I went to - they stipulated that skirts must hang 10 cm below the knees :)

[sabotabby]

Which...how does an adult-type person measure that? It gets creepy.

[mad-bertha.livejournal.com]

Funnily enough, I don't recall any teachers walking around with measuring tape. But everything was policed - if your hair touched your collar, it had to be tied up or cut, and so forth.

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

As of this week, Australia has you all beat: a teacher shaved a female student's armpits in class. (Student has a disability, and was doing a life skills program at a special school, which includes things like basic hygiene. Which kind of addresses my first question, of how "how is underarm shaving part of any curriculum?" only ... no.)

(http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/mother-wants-answers-after-teenage-daughters-armpits-were-shaved-by-teacher-20140529-396jg.html)

[sabotabby]

BRB vomiting forever.

[fatpie42.livejournal.com]

"Part of the curriculum"?

That article seems to be the school authorities saying "I don't know what we did wrong" on the one hand, and the mother asking "why would you even DO that?" on the other. I like how the article finishes with the mother wondering whether perhaps the regional director can give her some kind of explanation which makes sense, since the school sure as hell doesn't appear to able to do so.

[princealberic.livejournal.com]

WTF

Educating kids to have good hygiene habits is one thing (because yay hygiene!) but shaving armpits has nothing to do with cleanliness so this is absolutely horrendous.

[fatpie42.livejournal.com]

If they are going to make THAT much fuss, why don't they just have a uniform?

It would be a lot less fuss because the rules would be clearer. If you are wearing all the items of the uniform you are wearing the right thing. No worries about what colours clash because you will be wearing the same colours every school day. They might still insist on a bra, but at least there wouldn't be the bra-straps issue.

Making a fuss about clothing issues is sometimes used as a way to enforce discipline. If you seem strict about clothing then students are that bit less likely to misbehave in any serious way. After all, if you reacted that strongly to a shirt not tucked in, then how much worse might you react to a paper aeroplane thrown across your classroom? But if there's no school uniform I can imagine that being a great deal harder to enforce properly.

[sabotabby]

I deeply disagree with the idea of uniforms, though. This is completely selfish as I have problems telling kids apart and learning names at the beginning of the year (I'm slightly face-blind) and fashion is a marker that helps me learn who's who. But I also loathed the idea as a kid—as a busty girl, there was no way anything they designed would have ended up looking good on me, plus I like to change my clothes every day, which you can't do affordably with a uniform.

[smhwpf.livejournal.com]

We have uniforms at most secondary (post-11) schools in England, but it doesn't end the dress code issue, and it's still girls for the most part on the receiving end. At my school we would periodically (typically as summer approached) have lectures in assembly from the Head on the dos and don'ts. No slit skirts was a particular point. "Sew them up!"

I'm against uniforms on principle - the idea of compelling people to wear a particular set of clothes basically icks and offends me. I can see the arguments for - e.g. reducing competitiveness in clothes spending (although that again is partial, and the costs of uniforms to poor parents can be a serious problem), but they'd have to be very powerful considerations for me to override the fundamental objection.

[whatifoundthere.livejournal.com]

Good timing (by which I mean, yay, I get to throw up twice today). In today's local Metro there is a story about a school photoshopping yearbook pictures to cover tattoos and shirts that it deems too low-cut.

[sabotabby]

I saw that. FFS.

[begundan.livejournal.com]

Because girls never dress with the aim of attracting attention to their non-intellectual features, and because true rigorous studying can perfectly well occur in a room of semi-naked co-ed teens.

It's true that it's a rather awkward policing process, and that its rules are somewhat arbitrary, but as far as I'm concerned the best way out is school uniform, not the abolition of all policing.

You used to be edgier.

[fengi.livejournal.com]

Methinks this is about your own creepy adult fascination with teen flesh, if you use porn terms like "semi-naked co-ed teens" to refer to actual high school students.

But you are a troll, after all.

[begundan.livejournal.com]

you are a troll, after all

In the sense that I am aware of the fact that no one changes their minds about anything on the internet, and therefore disagreeing is a pointless form of online discussion - yes.

In the sense that I don't believe in what I am saying and the only aim of my comment is to solicit hateful replies - no.

[mistersmearcase.livejournal.com]

Literally nobody worth talking to has ever said "you used to be edgier" to another person. No need to belabor the content of your comment, which is the most eye-rollingly obvious kind of trolling.

[princealberic.livejournal.com]

Maybe this person is extremely interested in the bodies of teenagers because they're stuck in the days when they were a teenager, which was whenever "you used to be edgier" was something people said (I'm too young to know when this was)

[princealberic.livejournal.com]

Because girls never dress with the aim of attracting attention to their non-intellectual features

I don't know why this statement applies to girls alone. You could say the same about boys, that sometimes boys dress with the aim of attracting attention to their non-intellectual features, but somehow nobody ever raises any issues with boys doing that or assume they're dressing in whatever way for that specific purpose. Men and boys often dress the way they do because they like looking in the mirror and seeing a style that they find pleasant and comfortable. The same is true of women who, shockingly, are not actually an alien species hellbent on attracting sexual attention at all costs. Maybe it's just a good idea to not make assumptions about what people are trying to convey when they wear whatever clothes they like, instead of assuming that if they're women they must be trying to attract attention to their bodies.

and because true rigorous studying can perfectly well occur in a room of semi-naked co-ed teens

Teens can get distracted because they are teenagers and have lots of hormones and all that, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea for them to learn how to focus on something else even if they're attracted to someone who is in the same room with them. Teenagers are also prone to thinking that drugs and smoking are cool and harmless, or that drinking until they pass out is awesome, but it's generally agreed that it's a good idea for the adults in their lives to teach them otherwise. If we were talking about teenagers driving drunk, I think you wouldn't be just excusing them with a "oh, they're teenagers!", and we'd both agree that it'd be a good idea for the adults around them to teach them that driving drunk can be dangerous to themselves and others.

Teenagers aren't the best at self-control and responsibility, but that's exactly why they have a family and teachers, so they can learn how to do those things and be proper adults eventually. If we pretend that teenage boys don't have a responsibility to learn how to control themselves (and also to not sexualise people around them just because), we're doing everyone a huge disservice, and we're saying that men don't have to be responsible for their actions, don't have to control themselves, and don't owe any respect to themselves and those around them.

I find the "co-ed" part especially interesting, because there's people like me, who would probably be equally distracted among anyone they found attractive regardless of gender. Do you also think that there should be separate schools for queer kids? And maybe also that men and women shouldn't work together, in case a woman's bra is vaguely visible through her work shirt and distracts all her male co-workers?

It's true that it's a rather awkward policing process, and that its rules are somewhat arbitrary

Arbitrary rules don't sound like particularly good rules to me.

but as far as I'm concerned the best way out is school uniform, not the abolition of all policing

There are many arguments to be made in favour of school uniforms, like kids not being able to compare who has the most expensive clothing and not bullying each other over that, but not abolishing policing doesn't sound like a good one, since the message that sends is that it's ok for random strangers to have a say over what girls do with their own bodies.

Maybe teenagers should go to school wearing sheet-ghost costumes. Because even if they're wearing uniforms, you never know if one of them might have a uniform fetish, or finds hands/faces/hair arousing, and that poor kid might end up being distracted by the fact that his classmates aren't wearing gloves.

You used to be edgier.

sabotabby is edgy as fuck, which is why she's just not into outdated notions about how boys will be boys and don't have to be responsible for their actions, or that women are to blame for men not being taught any self-control.

[princealberic.livejournal.com]

I just noticed that you're apparently a troll, and not just some poor misguided soul who may need to be taught how to not be a dick, so feel free to disregard my other comment and refer to these helpful gifs:

[the_axel]

You've said and displayed everything I wanted to.
Thank you.

[smhwpf.livejournal.com]

Best. Troll response. Ever!

[xturtle.livejournal.com]

A+++, would LOL again!

[resonant.livejournal.com]

"Co-ed" has been the norm since the middle of the last century here ... it's time to get over what people wear.