podcast friday
May. 26th, 2023 07:25 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sabotabbyI am going to take the rare step of recommending a podcast series before it's over because I'm so into it. Like for the last two weeks I've woken up on Tuesdays and Thursdays looking forward to my walk to and from school because it means I get to listen to this.
There's personal backstory (watching wrestling as a kid with my Zaidie wherein he explained how it wasn't like it used to be) and fandom backstory and the fandom backstory is probably more interesting to you, which is to say that the Behind the Bastards fandom does a thing where they go on social media and beg Robert to cover particular bastards. For the longest time, it was Henry Kissinger, so he did a 6-part series on Henry Kissinger (which is really excellent and you should listen to it). Then it was Josef Mengele despite his insistence that you don't want that, so he finally did a 4-part series on Josef Mengele that most of the people in the fandom cannot listen to because ffs, Mengele was really one of the most horrifying people in existence and while they're brilliant episodes, they will break you.
Since Mengele the bastard everyone has been wanting is Vince McMahon, and he's been hinting at it for awhile, and once it was announced both BtB fandom and wrestling fandom went absolutely apeshit, apparently with an unprecedented enthusiastic response that he'd never seen before. Which. To be fair. I wake up on Tuesdays and Thursdays being like, I get to listen to this. It's the only time since I've been listening to the show that the sources that he cites actually contacted him because they were dying to talk about it so much.
And if you think that my nerdy, bookish ass would not enjoy listening to Robert and Cracked alumni Seanbaby and Tom talk about the bastard history of wrestling and Vince McMahon's bastardry in particular, you have probably missed:
1.ioplokon 's repeated and increasingly successful attempts to get me to learn about wrestling fandom.
2. Henry Jenkins' fascinating and insightful analysis of wrestling as participatory narrative and what it has to say about masculinity and storytelling. (Here's a sample, but read his books because they're really fun and interesting.)
The thing is for all of my attempts to be practical and grounded in my politics, the subjects that really make me excited are the way culture impacts politics. Yesterday I taught a class on the Hollywood Blacklist and how it broke American politics and the entire world, actually (alas, mostly unappreciated, but look, some day someone will be interested in this as much as I am) and McMahon's story in particular is a flashpoint for this.
So yeah if you think that listening to a comedy writer turned anarchist war correspondent talking about the WWF is going to great fun, yes, it is.
This series is going to be six episodes long, and the fourth one dropped yesterday. I'm recommending it before its conclusion because the first three have been that good (I'm currently listening to the fourth one). And yes, it's the same length as the one about Henry Kissinger.
Here's the first, I'm sure you can find the rest: "Vince McMahon: History's Greatest Monster."
There's personal backstory (watching wrestling as a kid with my Zaidie wherein he explained how it wasn't like it used to be) and fandom backstory and the fandom backstory is probably more interesting to you, which is to say that the Behind the Bastards fandom does a thing where they go on social media and beg Robert to cover particular bastards. For the longest time, it was Henry Kissinger, so he did a 6-part series on Henry Kissinger (which is really excellent and you should listen to it). Then it was Josef Mengele despite his insistence that you don't want that, so he finally did a 4-part series on Josef Mengele that most of the people in the fandom cannot listen to because ffs, Mengele was really one of the most horrifying people in existence and while they're brilliant episodes, they will break you.
Since Mengele the bastard everyone has been wanting is Vince McMahon, and he's been hinting at it for awhile, and once it was announced both BtB fandom and wrestling fandom went absolutely apeshit, apparently with an unprecedented enthusiastic response that he'd never seen before. Which. To be fair. I wake up on Tuesdays and Thursdays being like, I get to listen to this. It's the only time since I've been listening to the show that the sources that he cites actually contacted him because they were dying to talk about it so much.
And if you think that my nerdy, bookish ass would not enjoy listening to Robert and Cracked alumni Seanbaby and Tom talk about the bastard history of wrestling and Vince McMahon's bastardry in particular, you have probably missed:
1.
ioplokon 's repeated and increasingly successful attempts to get me to learn about wrestling fandom.2. Henry Jenkins' fascinating and insightful analysis of wrestling as participatory narrative and what it has to say about masculinity and storytelling. (Here's a sample, but read his books because they're really fun and interesting.)
The thing is for all of my attempts to be practical and grounded in my politics, the subjects that really make me excited are the way culture impacts politics. Yesterday I taught a class on the Hollywood Blacklist and how it broke American politics and the entire world, actually (alas, mostly unappreciated, but look, some day someone will be interested in this as much as I am) and McMahon's story in particular is a flashpoint for this.
So yeah if you think that listening to a comedy writer turned anarchist war correspondent talking about the WWF is going to great fun, yes, it is.
This series is going to be six episodes long, and the fourth one dropped yesterday. I'm recommending it before its conclusion because the first three have been that good (I'm currently listening to the fourth one). And yes, it's the same length as the one about Henry Kissinger.
Here's the first, I'm sure you can find the rest: "Vince McMahon: History's Greatest Monster."
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Date: 2023-05-26 01:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-26 08:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-26 02:16 pm (UTC)eta also vince is the worst
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Date: 2023-05-26 08:25 pm (UTC)Vince is the worst. But I was happy to learn that Jesse Ventura is good, actually?? because I remember when he was in the X-Files and then got elected as governor and thinking he was a bit weird and rad and it turns out he is in fact weird and rad. Like not perfect but he tried to form a union and says trans rights and is pro-masking and the conspiracy things that he believes are the funny ones, not the bad ones. TIL.
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Date: 2023-05-26 08:45 pm (UTC)yes, if we're looking at the landscape of wrestlers' politics Ventura is alright. most of the time you're just like, wow the painkillers to qanon pipeline sure is real...
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Date: 2023-05-26 08:57 pm (UTC)They do an interesting mini-analysis of why Ventura believes the whackadoodle things that he does and how from his POV it is quite reasonable to think that. All things considered. Next to Vince's literal victims and Andre the Giant he's the most sympathetic person in the story so far.
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Date: 2023-05-26 09:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-26 10:59 pm (UTC)So the vast majority of the Andre the Giant discussion is just because all three of them think that he's really cool and want to make sure anyone listening knows that he was cool and it's okay to stan him. Where it is relevant to the actual main character of the episodes is: 1) that McMahon knew he was dying and gave him a shitty exit and made him sad, 2) to set up Hulk Hogan as a heel when he later betrays Ventura over the union thing, and 3) that apparently Andre sided with Rita Chatterton and that was why he hated Vince.
Oh yeah and they also make it obvious that Vince is a racist and was since childhood.
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Date: 2023-05-27 01:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-26 03:05 pm (UTC)Down. Loading.
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Date: 2023-05-26 08:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-26 04:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-26 08:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-26 11:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-26 11:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-27 10:16 am (UTC)It seems weird we're back there now.
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Date: 2023-05-27 01:36 pm (UTC)There's an interesting argument to be made about Casablanca, which is my favourite movie of all time, 14/10, no notes. I have legit seen multiple arguments to the effect that if it weren't for the Hays Code, you'd see the Rick/Isla sex scene and they would have gotten together at the end. I will buy that we might have seen the sex scene but zero things about the tone of the rest of the movie lead me to believe that the writers ever seriously contemplated that kind of an ending. It's far too melancholic. This wasn't the Hays Code forcing creative subtext on writers, this was a conscious choice by talented screenwriters that would have happened pre- and post-Code.
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Date: 2023-05-27 02:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-27 02:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-27 10:19 pm (UTC)They didn't get together in the original play, either, which TIL was inspired one of the writers' taking a trip to Vienna to help relatives smuggle money out of the country. Also TIL that both authors, Murray Burnett and Joan Alison, where Jewish anti-Nazi writers
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Date: 2023-05-28 01:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-28 06:42 am (UTC)There is an argument to be had there. And it's a strong argument, you gave to get creative to get around the rules and do more with less. That said, restrictions are still restrictions at the end of the day.
I've never seen Casablanca, but if they had the sex scene, I'm going to assume the argument is that Rick and Isla would get married, because it would be UNTHINKABLE two adults would have sex and not marry as soon as they could.
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Date: 2023-05-28 01:45 pm (UTC)It's not really a strong argument. Dogme is all about self-imposed restrictions and I find those films mainly unwatchable. It's a cool idea but there's a reason why those films for the most part haven't endured.
I find Chinese film industry censorship interesting, in that you find things like Guardian where they can't overtly show the homosexuality in the original text, and it gets converted to subtext, which makes it even gayer (which censor thought sucking on a lollipop was going to be less homoerotic than smoking??). But I don't think there's an argument to make that it improves these stories, given the risk that the authors and actors tend to run under a repressive government.
I've never seen Casablanca, but if they had the sex scene, I'm going to assume the argument is that Rick and Isla would get married, because it would be UNTHINKABLE two adults would have sex and not marry as soon as they could.
You've never WHAT? go watch it. It's brilliant.
So in the movie—spoiler for an 81-year-old movie—Ilsa is married to Lazlo. It is very clear that she has sex with Rick, which is adultery, and thus shouldn't get a happy ending under the Hays Code. The film is very cleverly written to walk that tightrope—the text never explicitly acknowledges that they did, but everyone viewing it comes away with the impression that they did. And it is more interesting than a paint-by-numbers sex scene would have been.
There's also a bit of a rewrite of the Han Shot First variety in Rick killing a Nazi, but George Lucas didn't need the Hays Code to rewrite Han shooting first. Honestly, I think that the elements in the film that people attribute to censorship are better attributed to the writers being smart cookies and making good creative decisions. It was one of the first movies that defied a critical element of the Hays Code—specifically, the fact that it portrayed Nazis as bad, actually—and Warner Brothers were absolutely heroes of the time in this regard.
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Date: 2023-05-29 09:49 am (UTC)I had to look up Dogme, saw Lars von Trier, bounced.
I find Chinese film industry censorship interesting,
If find Hollywood's pandering to China's censors fascinating. Like, they haven't figured out how not to make it obvious?
I don't think I know Guardian, but I watched a terrible Russian film with a similar title.
You've never WHAT? go watch it. It's brilliant.
At this stage, it seems unlikely I will ever watch it.
And it is more interesting than a paint-by-numbers sex scene would have been.
That's my argument that an argument can be made for limits delivering benefits.
Also 9 Songs for a lack of benefits without limits.
The Special Editions have many crimes.
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Date: 2023-05-29 11:02 am (UTC)Exactly. It's a cool exercise, the films have definite artistic merit, I don't actually find them watchable.
If find Hollywood's pandering to China's censors fascinating. Like, they haven't figured out how not to make it obvious?
There's a good argument to be made that they're largely pandering to American internal censors, as well as the Saudis, not Chinese ones. It's fun to blame everything on China but American studios are big enough that they could force some cultural change if they wanted to. This is a pretty good analysis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIsQ502N0fg
I don't think I know Guardian, but I watched a terrible Russian film with a similar title.
Not the same one. This is a Chinese show that's adapted from an explicitly gay book. They had to make it not explicitly gay when they adapted it, with the result that it comes off much, much gayer than the book where they actually have sex.
At this stage, it seems unlikely I will ever watch it.
You are missing out. It's a work of genius.
That's my argument that an argument can be made for limits delivering benefits.
Except that I have a hard time believing that anything in Casablanca was about pandering to those limits. This is from the one studio that openly defied the Hays Code and its star was the co-founder of the Committee for the First Amendment and suspected of Communist sympathies (which he didn't have). I don't believe for a moment they cared about anything beyond telling the story they wanted to tell. Maybe other films, but this one is a bad example.
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Date: 2023-05-30 08:16 am (UTC)I've never watched a Lars film (not even Dancer in the Dark), and I downloaded Nymphomaniac and.or Antichrist and deleted them unwatched. They seem mean, I don;t like mean.
I have no doubt you're right about the American censors, but even Disney is pushing the envelope with Rise of Skywalker and that absolute filth Strange Worlds!
.
They had to make it not explicitly gay when they adapted it, with the result that it comes off much, much gayer than the book where they actually have sex.
LOL.
If you chuck in a werebear with a cannon I might watch it.
Someday, I may watch Casablanca too.
But I have the Thin Man films to watch first. And I have them on DVD.
And have had for 15 years.
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Date: 2023-05-30 10:55 am (UTC)I have no doubt you're right about the American censors, but even Disney is pushing the envelope with Rise of Skywalker and that absolute filth Strange Worlds!
Hah. Well, Disney likes money. They're not fighting De Santis for ideology.
LOL.
If you chuck in a werebear with a cannon I might watch it.
It's about that bonkers a show. They don't have the special effects budget though. There is a werecat who is the best character.
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Date: 2023-05-30 11:00 am (UTC)This is true, and false. The folks behind Disney are... complicated.
I can see a gradual push.
As a wise Vorlon once said, after the avalache begins it is too late for the pebble to vote.
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Date: 2023-05-28 07:29 am (UTC)I have to explain to my students every year what "miscegenation" means because thank fuck that's a word that isn't used anymore
I think i first came across miscegenation in a book about 6-7 years ago, on the train so I didn't have my dictionary handy, and I couldn't work out what the hell it was from the context.
A similar thing happened when I stumped across Octroon and Quadroon, and, again, had to look it up.
Turns out 'half-caste' wasn't nearly specific enough in ye olden times. Gave me quite a shock.
It was Robert E Howard and/or Algernon Blackwood who delivered the lessons. Not useful lessons, but here we are.
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Date: 2023-05-28 01:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-29 09:51 am (UTC)My family tree is so mongrel I can't figure out what it might be, but people were tracking the one-drop theory.
Sins of the parents indeed.
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Date: 2023-05-27 10:14 am (UTC)My own knowledge is limited, but I know people are into it, and I've never actually watched any, but the pop culture has seeped in over the years (some doccos and movies too) so, I feel I know more about this than, say, Moby Dick.
Mengele was really one of the most horrifying people in existence and while they're brilliant episodes, they will break you.
I believe this. As a kid of 9yo or so I accidentally watched a 60 Minutes show on Nazi war crimes. Assuming my memory is accurate (and assuming 60 Minutes was sanitised) i was less horrified when I actually went to Dachau, and suspected there was a lot, lot worse.
Plus, BTB's Clarence Thomas bit seems to be the gold standard people point to.
I know a little about McMahon's story from John Oliver(?). And rumours he(?) is Eric Trump's father.
I guess the Hollywood Blacklist is the 'Dirty Commies' list? (Another one of those ' it can never happen here moments that is, happening).
Aslo, Seanbaby? That's a name I haven't heard in a loooong time.
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Date: 2023-05-27 11:40 am (UTC)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f70sgIG-6kQ&pp=ygUZbWFyZ2FyZXQgcG9tZXJhbnogcmV2aWV3cw%3D%3D
She is a legend. Lots of reasons. I think you'll enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=margaret+pomeranz+reviews
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Date: 2023-05-27 01:45 pm (UTC)I guess the Hollywood Blacklist is the 'Dirty Commies' list? (Another one of those ' it can never happen here moments that is, happening).
It is. There's a lot of nuance about what it meant to be a commie in Hollywood in the 1940s, which I think is pretty important to discuss, but also a lot of them just weren't. Like Katharine Hepburn wasn't, ffs, and neither was Bogart—they just genuinely believed in the First Amendment. Trumbo definitely was, and Brecht was, though he was never a Party member.
But the important thing to take from it is that the pattern of a moral panic is always the same, be it the Red Scare or the Lavender Scare or the anti-trans stuff now. These people always make the same bleatings and it's important to be able to see the pattern and then not fall for it.
I used to love Seanbaby's writing and it's so weird to hear his actual voice.
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Date: 2023-05-28 02:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-28 03:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-27 01:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-27 01:45 pm (UTC)