podcast friday

[sabotabby]

 Go listen to the Wizards & Spaceships episode "Some People Call Me the Space Cowboy." No particular reason. It's about Space Westerns, problematic representation, and why Firefly was bad, actually.

Comments

[greylock]

and why Firefly was bad, actually.

I ST vs Doubt.

[greylock]

I just added Walker to my list!

And... Secret Empire(?). I never watched Deadwood, but I should add that.

I am surprised you didn't know the Western tropes. I can't recall a time I didn't know them.

And, I am not sure I've ever thought of The Expanse as a Western. I guess it is.

I have other thoughts, in which I think you're not wrong, but you're not right?
BUT Wild Wild West?

DEAD TO ME!

I partially disagree about some parts (superheroes as cowboys)... and does David not recall In Search Of?

[sabotabby]

I specifically didn't know about the OK Corral, because I was a child and didn't grow up with any of that stuff.

[greylock]

I didn't either. But somehow, I absorbed a lot from somewhere.
I remembered overnight that I have scrappy memories of seeing 'Spectre' for the first time, less for the western aspects, but just how weird it looked.

There's an RPG I recall seeing decades ago (Deadlands? Weird West?) I am sure fits in with this episode. I'm stunned it's never been made into a TV show or movie.

[selki]

Steve Jackson Games had a GURPS Deadlands RPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/309516/gurps-classic-deadlands-weird-west
They also had a board game: https://www.sjgames.com/frag/deadlands/

[greylock]

Exscuse you! That's noted hacker, wanted criminal and threat to America Steve Jackson!
(or The Other Steve Jackson!).

But thanks. It seems to have been one of the many GURPS adaptions of the original game, but looks the same. (And I did get a burst of nostalgia for the old GURPs cover style looking at that).

I found a post on Blackgate that suggests it was released in '96, but my memory would date it to '93. So, not sure what's happening there - but I'm glad to see it's still going. It did seem to be a fabulous idea for a setting.

I assume it would raise all sorts of colonialism issues, but it does remind me there is a fantastic "zombie" show called The Dead Lands set in pre-contact New Zealand which is a favourite.

[selki]

Yes, Steve Jackson, of Steve Jackson Games, like I said. I don't know where your reply is coming from or why I would be perceived as needing to be excused. I volunteered for SJG at many conventions demoing their games in the 1990s, thereby earning free swag and games from them, including an early prototype of the Frag DeadLands board game, and various GURPS books, and, of course, *Hacker*, the board game inspired by the SS raid. I was a member of the Electronic Freedom Frontier and of Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility, I was aware of the raid at the time and the near-destruction of SJG thereby (I'm pretty sure it was also talked about on comp.risks at the time, or at least once the lawsuit was filed, as being computer security (overreach) related) and of EFF's amicus brief, and I read Bruce Sterling's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hacker_Crackdown 1992 book with great interest. For those who've read this far and want more context, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jackson_Games,_Inc._v._United_States_Secret_Service

[greylock]

Aha!
So, back in the day, when I was involved in gaming circles, when Steve Jackson was mentioned, it was always a riff, because you had to determine if you were talking about the UK or US game designer.

Obviously my attempt at being flippant didn't translate at all. So, I should apologise.

But how we laughed back in the day at the stupidity of the US SS. It usually involved references to Paranoia! and Illumunati (the latter is still my favourite card came of all time).

I do have the Sterling book in hardback somewhere, a relic of my days of hanging around "cyberpunks".

[selki]

Thanks for clearing that up!

Oh, I FREAKED out a guy I'd started to date when I mentioned playing the card game Illuminati. It turned out he took all that seriously. We were not together long.

I think I culled the Sterling book at last while prepping to move in 2019 (gave boxes of books to the library). I hope someone else bought it at the library fundraiser used book sale.

[greylock]

One of my favourite bits from The Simpsons is the Reverse Vampires bit, which I swear was based off Illuminati. It reminds me of Illuminati's basic concept"
Ahem. OK, here's what we've got: the Rand Corporation, in conjunction with the saucer people, under the supervision of the reverse vampires, are forcing our parents to go to bed early in a fiendish plot to eliminate the meal of dinner! We're through the looking glass, here, people.

[kore]

My dad HATED John Wayne but showed me many, many non-JW Westerns as a kid. So I have this really lopsided viewing history, lol. I tried rewatching spaghetti Westerns a few decades later and omfg, the violent sexism.

[kore]

Expanse is totally a Space Frontier story, like Star Trek, which was "Wagon Train to the stars." Firefly had a lot of Western style trappings, but was more of a typical Whedon joint.

[greylock]

If you believe Christopher L Bennett, and on this I do, the "Wagon Train to the stars" aspect has been taken out of context.

[makamu]

Thanks for the recommendation - I've not yet seen Firefly yet (but it's on the list), but this is interesting to listen to, nonetheless.

[sabotabby]

It's not worth watching imo. You can probably just find a best-of on Youtube.

[makamu]

It's not worth watching imo. You can probably just find a best-of on Youtube.

I've already spent the money and am aware of the criticisms, so Whedon has already got my money and the damage is done. Do you think it is that irredeemable that not even a deconstructive viewing and potential fanfic writing might wring something worthwhile even from that stone?

[sabotabby]

Nah, I just think life is short and there's better telly.

[makamu]

That's fair *g*

[greylock]

IMO, it is worth watching.

But the reasons Tabby recommends for not watching it (the Lost Cause, colonalism, orientalism) plus were they were going with Inara, and the internet falling out of love with Joss are all valid, and were made at the time.
Plus Adam Baldwin.... And the Wheedonisms.

I still quote it occasionally.

I didn't like it the first time I saw The Train Job. (the network mandated pilot, Out Of Gas is Joss' preferred if I recall.

If you can deal with the meta aspects, and you love Buffy, I'd give it a shot. It's only a 14 episodes and a movie. And it is very Joss.
And it's way, way better than Dollhouse.

But, I have a Firefly T-shirt, and we were so starved for SF back in the day.

[makamu]

Thanks for your comments!

I think I can deal with the meta aspects because I'm aware of them going in, I have no particular cache with Wheedon. In fact I chose it, rather than Buffy to watch as a first Whedon because I generally like Westerns better than the tropes around which Buffy and Angel are built.

So I'll just give it a shot and see where it takes me

[greylock]

I love the fact none of us can spell Whedon!

Just looking at the Wiki, it appears the preferred option is 'Serenity' (the episode), and then 'The Train Job').
It's been a long time since I've watched it, but I reckon that's the order I'd recommend.
It's short, so it doesn't matter a lot, but I think it might land better, albeit it's two episodes.
'Train Job' may pack more Western tropes.

[makamu]

I love the fact none of us can spell Whedon!

Yep, me too.

And I'll keep the alternate order in mind when I start watching.

[kore]

I think it miiight be worth seeing once, maybe, if you're really interested in Whedon. But it's aged so badly, both in relation to him and stuff that bugged people even at the time (Inara).

[makamu]

I think it miiight be worth seeing once, maybe, if you're really interested in Whedon. But it's aged so badly, both in relation to him and stuff that bugged people even at the time (Inara).

Thanks for your comments! I'll just ask you the same thing I asked Tabby above: Me not being a Whedon fan and knowing about all the criticisms going in, do you think the show is so bad that you cannot even get ideas for good deconstructive fanfic out of it? If I find I enjoy some characters or worldbuilding, for instance.

[sabotabby]

FWIW, I have a conspiracy theory that Orphan Black is deconstructive fanfic of Dollhouse and The Expanse is deconstructive fanfic of Firefly. It may be farfetched but my argument for the latter is that Amos seems deliberately the kind of character you would write if your brief was "what if you tried to write Jayne but thought about it in terms of humans rather than tropes?"

[makamu]

FWIW, I have a conspiracy theory that Orphan Black is deconstructive fanfic of Dollhouse and The Expanse is deconstructive fanfic of Firefly. It may be farfetched but my argument for the latter is that Amos seems deliberately the kind of character you would write if your brief was "what if you tried to write Jayne but thought about it in terms of humans rather than tropes?"

Hmm, as I love Orphan Black to bits (while also acknowledging its warts and weird choices - what they did with Delphine and Cosima was deeply weird to me), and I am just in the process of reading and watching The Expanse, this also helps me understand the trouble with Firefly

[greylock]

Wow. I can see that for Orphan Black.

Not so much for Expanse, but now you have said it, Amos and Jayne do have echoes.
Do me fair, Amos had more time to grow, and Wes seems like a cool guy IRL. And a better actor.

alternate opinion from a stranger

[yhlee]

Honestly, you might have fun with it. I say this as someone who went into the shows after they were off the air with almost no prior context; watched all of Buffy but "Seeing Red," loved Angel for idiosyncratic reasons; I hated Firefly for the very specific reason that it was recommended to me as "this is great Asian science fiction" by a friend. Whatever other opinion one may have of Firefly, positive or negative, it's not particularly Asian, so I was "sold" something the show was not and that's not the show's fault. Demonstrably, for its faults, a lot of people have enjoyed Firefly and remain devoted to it. You might get some enjoyment out of it too!

I'm speaking as someone who watched all of Dollhouse, which for my money is a worse-conceived and objectively worse show generally (I think rachelmanija's analysis of the premise is spot on), and enjoyed it A TON as trashy and/or "let's deconstruct this" and/or "time for crackfic!" fun. In real life, if someone wants to watch a Whedon show, absent specific tropes/tastes, I would usually rec trying Firefly looooong before Dollhouse. So it really depends on what you're in it for, and where you set your expectations. I'm a trash panda so I often do get more sheer enjoyment out of objectively trashy TV vs. something that's well-conceived and written.

Re: alternate opinion from a stranger

[makamu]

Thanks for the detailed comment, which genuinely helped me weigh the issue. Much like you, I have a very high tolerance for media being less than perfect, so I'm going to give it a try and see where I come up for air.

[smhwpf]

I listened to the episode, it was awesome, and I have so many thoughts!

[sabotabby]

Do tell!

[wint3rpear]

XD I just got my new iPad so.. I will listen to it later. Love the reference though.

[sabotabby]

Enjoy!

[wint3rpear]

I recommended W&S to another friend. :) Spreading the word!

[sabotabby]

Thanks!

[wint3rpear]

No prob :D

[grimjim]

My first exposure to Firefly was the movie, which was fun like an amusement park ride, but the plot was
totally a conspiracy theory trope.

[sabotabby]

Oh, and I also can't stand the "we'll tell the world the truth and ... the problem will be somehow solved."

[grimjim]

There's something vaguely American Cold War about that trope.

[sabotabby]

It's deeply ahistorical.

[grimjim]

I mean, there's something naive about the optimism that people want a democratic revolution and just need a flag to rally around to get things started, and that's how tyranny will be defeated.

I'm now considering if Firefly is the SF equivalent of The Dukes of Hazzard.

[sabotabby]

You're not wrong.