sabotabby | Ladies don't start fights, but they can finish 'em.

Vaguely related photo of the day.

So let me get this straight. Woman goes to a bar with some friends. Drunken jerk gropes her. Woman restrains him, physically, while delivering a stern lecture about how he ought to treat women with a bit more respect. Woman's husband, who happens to be a Campbell Award-winning author with a really great blog, makes an amusing post about the incident.

Immediately, some readers want to know why Scalzi even allowed Mrs. Scalzi out of the house without a burqa and a male relative in the first place—and to a bar, no less! Dr. Helen thinks it's unfeminine. Libertarian gun nuts who wouldn't think twice about defending the right of a property owner to shoot some dude who trespassed on their land freak out over the idea that men may not have the unalienable right to touch any woman they encounter in public. People demand Krissy's arrest. Predictably, someone blames feminism and suggests that this sort of thing is the reason why the mail-order bride business is booming. Overwhelmingly, many people echo the sentiment that getting groped is a common "annoyance" for women who go to bars, which is why proper ladies shouldn't go to bars.

In case you think I'm exaggerating, here are some sample comments:

Several questions:

Did she ask him, politely or not, to leave her alone first before actually attacking him?

Why is it that everyone here seems to be turned on by belligerent, butch women?

Do you know any lawyers? Because if she actually hits someone who annoys here with a bat you're going to need one.
- K

Very classy. You married a woman who starts bar room brawls. You must be soooo proud.

Krissy committed a battery. It wasn't self defense and she's fortunate she wasn't arrested. Had she been, it sounds like she'd have fit in just fine in jail.
- Ming the Merciless Siamese Cat

...For example: there actually is a primary, main reason why men behave like that -- it is because in the past, women have rewarded them for it, with attention, affection, and intimacy.

So what would actually 'rock' now would be for Krissy and John, or any of most of the commenters here, to post acknowledging that, and do the nigh-unthinkable in today's culture: actually dare to criticize women for their particular behavioral irresponsibility; to point out that many women go in groups to drinking establishments specifically in order to hook up with men there, or at the very least get their egos stroked through interaction with the men there; and that the men there know it, and also know that very often a 'no' from the women there really just means 'try harder'...
- Acksiom

WRONG. Completely wrong.

What you're advocating is the same stupidity that afflicts the world over. There were numerous options available other than a violent response, and your proclamation that this was the right thing to do in the situation is completely out of line.

Quite simply, two wrongs don't make a right.

The only reason your wife doesn't deserve to be beaten with an ugly stick is because God already beat us to the job.

Your wife might think she's a hard a$$, but she's nowhere near it. She was lucky the dude was just a drunken buffoon. I recommend against perpetuating your misconception.

Next time, I hope the guy has a gun.
- Anonymous

...While my daughters do go to bars with friends, they don't go to bars and get into brawls with other drunks.
If they did, I'd expect their husbands/boyfriends to watch out for them somehow -- not cheer them on!
I know you, like Emily [a poster who defended Krissy's actions], wish it were a world in which a woman can go anywhere and do anything a man can. But it ain't.
- pipe

And my personal favourite:

The picture is mis-captioned. It should read:
This is an American Woman.
Seen the marriage statistics lately?

No wonder the foreign-bride businesses are booming. What man in possession of his own mind would want that?
- Baron Waste, who goes on to provide such gems as...

There is for the Mexicana a difference of centrality. Her focus is on her home, her man, and her children. She sees her job as a way to support her family instead of, as happens northward, the other way around. Her home is more important to her than her office. Making partner at Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe is not her reason for living...

Now, young and beautiful has its charm. Men do not, as a rule, seek out the aged. But—and I know many of these men well—what draws them is the warmth and womanliness of the Mexicana. In Mexico you don’t marry one of the guys. You don’t marry a child-support bomb waiting to explode without visitation. You don’t marry a hundred pounds of irrational anger looking for an excuse. You marry a woman. The difference... my God, the difference...

... Ukrainian women seem to simply appreciate and respect men more. Not in a subservient way, but as a complement to a man. That is the sincere desire for most of them. American women pre-feminism were like this and also never as subservient as the media likes to portray them today. Most were very happy being wives and mothers until that route became demonized by the intelligentsia. They were told they were unhappy and became that way.

Scalzi's response, both in various comments and in his follow-up post, is kinder than mine would be, considering the number of people suddenly jumping on the "violence is wrong" bandwagon (but I suspect they wouldn't be so quick to assume that the violence of the American government against Iraq is wrong, or the violence of a cop shooting a suspect is wrong) and suggesting that his wife should be beaten, shot, or thrown in prison.

As usual, Amanda Marcotte has some good commentary.

To sum up, we've learned the following:

• Male violence against women is common, and therefore acceptable.
• Should a woman retaliate, even if no harm is done, she is anything from immature to criminal.
• If a man touches a woman's breasts, it isn't violent. If a woman touches a man's throat with her elbow, she ought to be locked up for the good of society.
• Ignore the potential rapist and he'll go away. Except for when he doesn't. But anyway, if he does, it's your fault for putting on shoes and leaving the kitchen.
• Foreign women are better because they're submissive and appreciative of men.

It always a wonder to see how anonymous forums allow so many men to be so open with their misogyny. I wonder how many decent-seeming men I encounter in my daily life secretly feel this way.

Current Location: Comma Mines

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From:

apperception.livejournal.com

...For example: there actually is a primary, main reason why men behave like that -- it is because in the past, women have rewarded them for it, with attention, affection, and intimacy.

Ugh! What? What the FUCK!? WHAT?!

In light of my own experiences with friends who have gotten groped, I would suggest that this person would benefit from talking to more women. But that's really not true. What this person really needs is a swift one to the family jewels.

The comments about Mexican and Ukrainian women are actually kind of funny. In the same way the Nazi UFO theory and IDF time machines are kind of funny.

But mostly this makes me mind-bendingly angry.

From:

sabotabby

I find much of the commentary funny. Except sorta not.

Yesterday, a friend told me that she was going to start posting personal ads again. She'd initially started with "single Asian female," which is an accurate, if cliché, description. I had to warn her against that because I know she'll get flooded with white boys who fetishize "foreign" women and will probably get all belligerent when they discover that she's actually not a submissive little lotus blossom. I wish she didn't have to worry about that. It's hard enough to meet a decent fellow.

I also wish I haven't had to defend my boobs from men who assumed that they were public property since I was nine years old. I should have taken up kickboxing as soon as I hit puberty, and if I ever have a daughter, I'm going to make sure that she does.

i'll tell you all my secrets but i'll lie about my past

Ladies don't start fights, but they can finish 'em.

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