Food fight & announcement

[sabotabby]

(Because I don't post enough about food lately.)

I woke up (late, yay!) to a discussion on CBC of some book called Skinny Bitch that apparently purports to be about how you should hate yourself and diet more but is actually disguised pro-vegan propaganda. They had the publisher of Bitch describing why the book wasn't actually good dietary advice, and also how she felt conflicted, because as a vegan, she appreciates people touting the value of a plant-based diet, but as a feminist, she objects to fat-shaming, etc. Amanda at Pandagon has more on how completely insane this book sounds.

It just sounds bizarre to me. Rightly or wrongly, vegetarianism—and especially veganism—are dietary choices that I tend to associate, at least in the West, with progressive values, not with woman-bashing. (In many parts of the world, of course, it's either cultural or religious or, you know, better than starving.) Of the reasons people generally give for being vegetarian, "for health reasons" always seemed to be the weirdest. I know from personal experience that it's quite easy to be a chunky v*gan and an unhealthy one (note, the two are not necessarily linked), and I often go through periods where I'm too busy to eat particularly well. The "health reasons" people are either the most hypocritical—the ones who claim to be vegetarian but actually eat chicken all the time—or the most self-righteous, berating you for having too much whatever-the-trendy-food-to-demonize-is in your diet.

There's a link between the moral purity you see with a lot—not all, or perhaps even most—vegans and organic food nuts and the moral purity you find with self-loathing diet fanatics. As if anything impure that you put into your body is a personal failing. You know the fat-bashers who claim that obesity has nothing to do with class because you can live on lentils so cheaply? That's what this reminds me of. Only because of how it's packaged, it looks like it'll catch on beyond the uptight activist community.

Though I suppose it's better than Atkins and everyone eating steak wrapped in bacon and thinking they'll lose weight.

Anyway, so that's one thread that's been going through my head. Next up is a weird thing that I've experienced lately, which is that there seem to be fewer vegetarian teachers than vegetarians among the general population. Maybe it's because being an activist, I have more veg*n friends, but I've met a grand total of one other vegetarian at OISE that I know of, and one other teacher.

It seems to me that this may lead to a certain social awkwardness in the future. At what point does one "come out," particularly in the tech milieu, where it's akin to loudly declaring myself a sushi-eating queer?

---

Announcement: For those of you who didn't know or have forgotten, tomorrow is Subversive Fishnet Day. I have my fishnets; do you have yours?

Comments

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

The whole v*gan for health and diet thing never sat with me.
Granted I lost weight when I stopped eating meat, but seeing as my sister has been a v*gan for over twenty years and is a chubby chick... yeah.
Also when you're lazy/bored and you've got carbs around you're not being a "healthy v*gan".

The whole moral panic over fat and obesity is another symptom of how the abundance of the West can be an ailing and a failing.

[sabotabby]

I lost weight initially, then gained a lot of weight, then lost it again for reasons that I don't think have much to do with diet. There are certainly more efficient ways of losing weight, like boycotting Nestle and Coke. ;) Not that I do that for health reasons either.

[wlach.livejournal.com]

"also how she felt conflicted, because as a vegan, she appreciates people touting the value of a plant-based diet, but as a feminist, she objects to fat-shaming, etc..."

Groan. How can people like this take themselves seriously? Perhaps I'm missing something, but this "debate" sounds like a gigantic tempest in a teapot to me. I guess it's a lot more fun to talk about what one should "consume" than to actually tackle the serious structural problems in our food system. Blech.

[sabotabby]

Well, no, she was talking about structural problems too. I am oversimplifying because I don't have quotes on me.

[marnanel.livejournal.com]

Do I get to wear fishnets to work? Because that sounds awesome.

[sabotabby]

That's the idea.

[symbioid.livejournal.com]

I don't have any fishnets, alas. Panties, yes... and while that's subversive, it's only inwardly subversive, as I don't want to scare the world *that* much!

While we're on the subject of fat people and panties... How fucking stupid of a book is that. Girls have enough insecurities, and now we're trying to foist veganism as the solution to their problems? Fuck, how sick.

Health, people (not like I'm a paragon of it, but still), health! I'm sensitive I think because my sister was anorexic 20 years ago, and it's so sad to see it persevere in society.

[sabotabby]

Well, the idea is that if you wear them under pants, you can get away with fishnets in the office.

The thought of that book makes me want to eat a burger.

[symbioid.livejournal.com]

Wait... what's with the '*' in v*gan?

[sabotabby]

The lazy person's way of writing "vegan or vegetarian."

[beeblism.livejournal.com]

There's a link between the moral purity you see with a lot—not all, or perhaps even most—vegans and organic food nuts and the moral purity you find with self-loathing diet fanatics.

ooohhh yeah there is. i would suggest this: after having been a vegan for at least five years, and a militant foodnotbombsian one for like three of those, i have this theory (that would never mention in any of said circles) that there is actually waaaaaa


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aaaaay more in common between those two purer-than-thou groups you list here -- the (ostensibly) "it's healthier" animal-rights types and the straight up patriarchal self-abusing dieters -- than anyone in the former group could ever admit.

i know! i know! that sounds reactionary. and there's plenty of exceptions. but holy crap, the friends i've spent time with -- especially but not all women -- who are strict hardcore look-for-the-casein, send-it-back-if-they-put-butter-on-it vegans are all constantly hyper-aware of their body weight; seem to have unstable body images (not their fault); and finding out these people had a history of eating disorders became so common, eventually i almost expected it.

i also started to wonder if the militancy was a way of masking these less noble, more selfish reasons for being vegan. but hints of it always came out in little ways, until finally i just had to admit that their primary reason for being so vegan wasn't to stop factory farming or because cheese really was somehow a sin as grievous as murder -- but just because they wanted to be as skinny as possible.

and that's ok! whatever! it's just that once i peeled off that crust of hypocrisy, and glared for the first time upon the complex stew of contradictions in which i and almost everyone i knew was wading in, yet not one person was ever brave enough to even acknowledge publicly, i found myself feeling more and more like i was living in a cult. and in a way i literally was. i think that any group of people have a tendency to move towards the didactic and intolerant whenever they get together to support each other in their beilefs, moreso when those beliefs are marginalized. that says nothing about the ethics of their beliefs; just that it's hard for people to mellow out about shit sometimes. especially when the foundations of some of their arguments rest on shiftier sands than their vehemence could encapsulate. especially when they don't want to admit to and address more human, personal, less politically sexy issues -- like their plain old fear that no one will love them if they are fat. which is a serious issue too.

i also have friends who are perfectly healthy and vegan -- but none of them seem to be militant about it. it's a personal choice based on their personal body's needs. making a career out of agitpropping or guilt-tripping your friends and coworkers into changing their diets, while your own child looks like a dachau survivor... that just seems really fucking twisted these days, now that i've removed myself from the rhetoric. i'm not sure this is still OT. sorry.

anyway, the supervegan starvation cryptodiet trend is on its way out. only rich people and shoplifters can afford that lifestyle anyway. a lot of people i know are vegetarian, and are slowly growing back the myelin, b12 and iron that they lost during their tour of duty in veganopolis.

[beeblism.livejournal.com]

sorry for the typos. i'm loopy.

[sabotabby]

The link between fanaticism and compensating for deficiencies in one's life comes up again and again in activist circles, and I don't exempt myself from this criticism either. I've never been particularly vehement about my diet, mind you.

Probably the majority of vegans are not self-righteous assholes. Definitely the majority of vegans I know are not shits about it. But you always get the handful that will guilt-trip you like there's no tomorrow.

[ironed_orchid]

There's an eating disorder called orthorexia nervosa, which is, as it sounds, the refusal to eat "impure" foods. People with it tend to be have very restrictive diets, as restrictive as they can, and even preach to others about the benefits of their diets, which make them sick.

Not all vegans have this, but veganism is very attractive to orthorexics for obvious reasons.

[symbioid.livejournal.com]

Hey, maybe I have this. Only, "impure" to me is veggies!

[sabotabby]

Interesting. I wonder if they tend to go gluten-free as well.

[pluvka.livejournal.com]

amazon recommended that book to me after i bought a few veggie cookbooks, and i was all, wtf?! then i read about it on some vegan message boards, and was offended. unfortunately being veg*n has very little to do with progressive politics, which means that they, just as much as everyone else, are obsessed with weight loss & fat-phobia in the name of 'health'. of course, thinness isn't an indicator of health at all and that's just a cover up for 'i want to be thin for aesthetic reasons'.

but there are definitely valid health reasons for being vegan that have nothing to do with weight. personally, i went vegan first for ethics, but now it's become more about my health. you probably already know that vegans have a much lower chance of getting heart disease and various cancers, among other things - that, and animal products/shitty foods are a huge trigger for my digestive problems and anxiety.

[sabotabby]

I find when people say "for health reasons" they almost always mean "because I want to be skinny." But yeah, there are definitely legitimate health reasons. I stopped eating meat at first because it was making me ill.

[frippy.livejournal.com]

I've always been a little wary about Skinny Bitch, just as I have been about PETA's fat-bashing. I'm a fat vegan of the no-casein, send-it-back variety that beeblism talked about but I'm motivated primarily by a belief that I don't want any part of the factory farming of animals. I've found that anyone I know who went vegan under the notion that they'll lose a lot of weight really fast never really stuck to it, because when they don't see instant results, they'll go to something else.

(And just personally, I wince at people who are vegan for reasons related to their weight because I personally think the AR side of the coin is the most important. Do people take up other political causes to look hotter?)

I lost a lot of weight this year but that's because I ate less and exercised more. There's always too much emphasis on exactly what goes in your mouth. Maybe I should write a book about how you can get laid more often and wear tinier clothes if you stop driving around your monster-sized SUV and hop on a bike. Then I'd benefit from not having to deal with so much traffic on the roads.

[sabotabby]

Do people take up other political causes to look hotter?

I happen to look very cute in a keffiyeh. ;)

Maybe I should write a book about how you can get laid more often and wear tinier clothes if you stop driving around your monster-sized SUV and hop on a bike. Then I'd benefit from not having to deal with so much traffic on the roads.

Seriously. It's not only better for your health, it's better for everyone's health.

[lokilokust.livejournal.com]

i really hate the moral aspect to a lot of people's veganism.
in fact, i tend to to avoid pretty much any discussion of morality as it relates to teh subject and don't engage in discussions about animal rights.
if people want to talk about the ethical and environmental issues around factory farming and how it exploits the poor and generally fucks over anyone who comes in contact with the industry... well then, that's something i'll gladly talk about.
i also don't tend to talk about the personal health reasons i have for my vegan diet since that's, well, personal and i don't see any need to fob such personal info on complete strangers in some misguided attempt to get people to live like me.
(addendum! i do think that veganism is going to play a big part in the necessary switchover from geoponic farming to hydro/aeroponic vertical farming... but that's not really the same as the whole 'don't eat food wiffs a face!' nonsense.)

[sabotabby]

I think there's an ethical aspect there. But it's not the morality of "eww you're putting that in your body you sinner."

Indulge my ignorance for a moment: what is hydro/aeroponic vertical farming?

Shut Up! Memory

[ed-rex.livejournal.com]

The "health reasons" people are either the most hypocritical—the ones who claim to be vegetarian but actually eat chicken all the time—or the most self-righteous, berating you for having too much whatever-the-trendy-food-to-demonize-is in your diet.

You remind of a (chunky, probably-also-unhealthy) "vegan" I used to know who was the worst of both worlds. Obnoxiously self-righteous and someone who would order sweet-and-sour pork at a Chinese restaurant - and then demand that I tell know one about her transgression.

Re: Shut Up! Memory

[sabotabby]

Sweet-and-sour pork is disgusting on so many levels. It isn't nice to mock people about their dietary habits, but I think you'd have been allowed to mock her on that one.

The laziest comment

[constintina.livejournal.com]

good interview re: obesity hysteria that says what I would say.

and

my thoughts on Skinny Bitch (hint, involves HATRED)

Re: The laziest comment

[99catsaway.livejournal.com]

Yikes! That book sounds like it would make me furious.

[99catsaway.livejournal.com]

IAWTP.

Also, I used to work at the Houston branch of the American Cancer Society, which had about 50 people in the office. I was the only vegetarian. I think when I went to a 300 person conference with the group, I was probably the only vegetarian too! I attribute a lot of that to the age and conservatism of the average person working there.

But I also agree with what you said about how being a vegetarian isn't necessarily healthy. The ACS was the same group of people who got extremely concerned, rather than pleased, to find out that I was walking, rather than driving, the half-mile to work every day.

[sabotabby]

It's an age thing and also a culture/class thing. Though more a culture thing where my classmates are concerned; they spend $50 on steak!

The ACS was the same group of people who got extremely concerned, rather than pleased, to find out that I was walking, rather than driving, the half-mile to work every day.

What? Why?

[herkyjerkydance.livejournal.com]

Just thinking about that book makes me want to be sanded faceless, and I'm really sick of hearing other vegan peeps fawning over it and saying "it'll bring younger women to veganism!" Yeah, by promoting obsessive body-hatred and neurotic calorie-counting. Plus, as I can attest, veganism doesn't automatically make you skinny or healthy - I lost maybe 6-7 pounds when I stopped eating critter foods and didn't gain anything in the physical-prowess department. It takes, you know, exercise for me to be in good shape.

[sabotabby]

I hadn't heard anything until this morning, and now it's all over the place. Go figure. I haven't seen anyone praise its virtues yet, thankfully.

[talibah-nazahah.livejournal.com]

ive seen that book and it always kind of hit me wrong. like, "eating a sesame seed at dinner doesnt make you a vegetarian/vegan"... i havent read the book but i just feel like it does vegetarianism/veganism a diservice. now, all these high school girls are going to eat carrots, call themselves vegans and get sick and then vegetarianism looks unhealthy. i have a hard enough time convincing people that you can get everything you need from a vegetarian/vegan diet... and yes... even protein! hahaha... ugh! so annoyed. it's even on the New York Times top ten How To and Advice List, which means tons of people are buying it.

[sabotabby]

I thought anorexic high school girls ate nothing but carrots anyway. How is this book anything new?

[sadie-sabot.livejournal.com]

since we're talking aobut veganism and self-righteousness...

back in the day I went to jail for a six month sentence form a political theater thing. At the time, I'd been vegan for probably 4 years, lived in a vegan household, had a vegan boyfriend who was wayyy more vegan than me, etc. My veganity was about compassion and environmental health. Anyway, one of my co-defendants was this hard core animal rights activist, obviously very vegan. And when we went to jail, he basically starved himself because he couldn't get vegan food. I decided to just be a vegetarian, which was challenging enough...basically i got to eat one of four different dishes for lunch and dinner for 4 months. (all pasta based). somehow word got back ot my co-defendant that I wasn't keeping vegan in jail, and he spread the word among his folks, who shit talked me enough that it got back to MY folks. Also, I got sent things in the mail, like some of those "why vegan" pamphlets with the gorey pictures, with handwritten notes saying, "This is why SOME of us are vegan." It was so...so fucking stupid. After that, i was all, you know what? you all are such idiots and such assholes that I thin I'll eat some cheese just to spite you. LOL. I've been not very vegan since then, although it's only in the past three years or so that we started having cheese and eggs at our house. Oh, and ice cream.

anyway, I thought there were more interesting things to focus on in jail, like paying attention to what it was like to be in the minority, and checking out what folks' lives were like, etc.