The Great Cultural Appropriation Flamewar of '09

[sabotabby]

It's too late for me to weigh in, even if I wanted to, and really, I don't want to beyond what I've left in comments in other people's LJs.

However. I am trying to pick up the Novel Of Doom again*. Not that I envision becoming a famous bestselling author or anything like that, but I have books in me that shall, I hope, one day come out. Not to mention what must be at least several books worth of blogulation—I do seem to write an awful lot of stuff.

All of this is to say, dear friends, that if at any time it appears that I'm not wearing pants, I'd much rather know than not. You'd tell me, right?

* I mean, seriously. It is halfway done, at least. I know how it ends. I also pretty much know what happens in the middle, and my only excuse for not having finished it a year ago is that I haven't been in the correct frame of mind to write it.

Comments

[bcholmes.livejournal.com]

I promise to call you on any racist shit that I, as a marginally-trained white person, can spot if you'll do likewise.

[sabotabby]

It's a deal.

*terrorist fist jabs*

[lizw.livejournal.com]

Yes, I would, because if it was me, I'd also much rather know.

This go-round has been quite instructive for me because so much of it has been happening in geek sections of the community, where I thought it was generally accepted that if someone is Being Wrong, to point out the error is to do them a favour. I've lost count of how many times I've seen people vaunting that as one of the ways in which geek culture is superior to the mainstream. But apparently my copy of that memo was missing the rider that said "unless the Wrongness is related to race or some other privilege they don't want to examine."

[sabotabby]

Oh! I hadn't even thought of that, and you are so right.

One of the reasons, geeky as I am, that I don't hang around many full-blown geeks (I mean, most of my friends are geeky, but there's geeky and there's Geek, if you know what I mean) is that I can't stand the conversation-as-correction thing, where you have:

Geek 1: [random obscure fact of trivia]
Geek 2: Well, actually [correction]

It just drives me up the wall. It's never a proper debate; just people showing off how smart they are, for a value of smart that, nine times out of ten, is completely irrelevant and boring.

But even given that, there's a glaring hypocrisy because not one of the people involved would have been this horrifically offended if someone had pointed out that the physics behind the FTL travel they used in their latest novel wouldn't actually work.

[seaya.livejournal.com]

You know when I've made that sort of correction it wasn't to show off, it was to make sure the other person wasn't under false impressions and they stopped spreading them. Usually when the person I'm correcting has a habit of going on about how smart they are and spreading misconceptions. Like the time that [redacted] was going on about the history of hip hop and saying many false things and showing off.

But I digress.

Your last paragraph is 100% true.

[zingerella.livejournal.com]

I think part of the reason that some people are taking this particular round of correction so badly is that we're not dealing with facts, here. We're dealing with readings of texts, something at which they'd considered themselves pretty durned good; empathy which, People Who Have Been Hurt, they think they shouldn't need any schooling; and communicating, which, as writers, many of them think they've had all the validation that should count. These are squishy, subjective things, rather than hard facts, and so they can't quite wrap their brains around how their opinions aren't as valid as other people's.


There's a whole lot of other stuff going on as well, of course.

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

We're dealing with readings of texts, something at which they'd considered themselves pretty durned good; empathy which, People Who Have Been Hurt, they think they shouldn't need any schooling; and communicating, which, as writers, many of them think they've had all the validation that should count.

Oh SO WELL PUT. -- And then there are people, like willshetterly, who think they have already paid their But I'm Not a Racist! dues in full and so refuse to think they could exhibit any kind of racist behaviour or bear any kind of unexamined racist prejudice in their psyches ever. Ever.

sigh.

[springheel-jack.livejournal.com]

Geeks do that so much not because they think it's geek-acceptable but because they know geeks hate it even more than norms. It's an aggressive gesture in norm discourse but even more so in geek. Geeks are mean.

[joxn.livejournal.com]

Geeks will even do this when no objective error of fact is involved. I observed the following (approximate) conversation at a party recently.
Woman: "I really like my new iPhone!"
Man, Geek: "But they're dangerous! Did you hear about (some obscure identity-theft thing you can do with the iPhone)?"
Woman, looking embarrassed at being caught out: "... Well ..."
joxn, to self: "Fuck this noise, I'm going to go hang out with people who don't make one another randomly feel bad about themselves."

[springheel-jack.livejournal.com]

Model of academia. Academics hate to be criticized or even disagreed-with, yet they have to subject themselves to it at papers and panels all the time. They pretend it's collegial and then always, always go back to their offices and blow up about it to their favorite grad students.

It's such a sado-masochistic ritual. It's really quite funny, in a sort of sick, teeth-on-edge way.

[revolution-grrl.livejournal.com]

That and what the hell else are we going to do with all this awesome knowledge inside?? Let it siiiing out!

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

Geek 1: [random obscure fact of trivia]
Geek 2: Well, actually [correction]

I do that only with grammar and spelling, but all the time....it's a weakness, it's an illness, my mum didn't love me!

//slinks off

[cucumberseed.livejournal.com]

I take it another way; the fact that these conversations come up at all is potentially positive, despite all the defensiveness that follows. That said, I am deliberately Pollyannaing this go round, because, yeah, it's not a lot different than the last go-round. Maybe my hope is misplaced.

[cucumberseed.livejournal.com]

I'll call you on anything fail I see, if you call me on the same.

[sabotabby]

Coolness.

[caprinus.livejournal.com]

I hadn't even clued in there was some greater shitstorm going on until yesterday! I saw a few people on ye olde flist making posts about racism and SF, but I didn't put two and two together, I thought it was just random synchronicity. Ooops.

The thing is, the Wrongness of racist writing isn't comparable to the Wrongness of, say, specs for a railgun, or orbital mechanics, or what issue of Batman had him in a blue thong. People in general, not just geeks, often either shy away from comparing subjective truths which depend on context and perspective, or adopt extreme, caricatured positions and stick to them unyieldingly. A lack of objective standards means that to tell people they are Being Wrong on how not to be racist (without being able to point to a society which is not racist) is a much different proposition than telling them how to dress in period 17th century Lithuanian clothing. It's not impossible, of course, as proven by the many great posts I tracked down yesterday (though there were also terrible ones), but it's different. Second, it would be often wrong to assume that the white people in sci fi/fantasy are actually written as people. I think much of the genre's shallower pool sees all the characters as plot devices. If the token POC character is a cardboard caricature, but so is every other character (except, perhaps, the Marysue at the centre), all of them only there to propel narration along the magical devices or Klingons, where does one even start to complain?

(How did this whole thing get titled "Cultural Appropriation" anyway? "Representation of Race" != "cultural appropriation" *confused*)

[sabotabby]

"Cultural appropriation" seems inaccurate, but then, I haven't read most of the posts. So maybe it went there; I'm not sure.

or what issue of Batman had him in a blue thong.

Pics or it never happened.

If the token POC character is a cardboard caricature, but so is every other character (except, perhaps, the Marysue at the centre), all of them only there to propel narration along the magical devices or Klingons, where does one even start to complain?

I don't think it's a problem if that's the case. I mean, it's a problem, but one of poor writing rather than white privilege. What is the white equivalent of the Magical Negro or the Inscrutable Asian Villain, though?

[seaya.livejournal.com]

This is because one stream of the early conversation was a conversation on cultural appropriation in Jay Lake's journal which got rolled into discussion of representation in general.

[zingerella.livejournal.com]

What is the white equivalent of the Magical Negro or the Inscrutable Asian Villain, though

For that, we have to look at which groups of white people have a history of oppression and marginalization:

The Funny Fat Dude

The Shrill Fat Stupid Woman

The Dead Lesbian

The Tragic Dead Gay Man

The Insatiable, Perverted Bisexual/Transperson

The Bad Girl Who Inevitably Has Something Bad Happen to Her Because She Had Sex

The tropes are there, and are damaging.

I think the current Snargle is more accurately characterized as being about Racial Stereotypes; however, because one of the sparks that lit the tinder was matociquala's post on de-Othering the Other, there was some feeling that she (a white woman) was speaking for PoC, when her own efforts in representation of the Other have been less than perfect successes, which got conflated with appropriation.

Or something.

[caprinus.livejournal.com]

What is the white equivalent of the Magical Negro or the Inscrutable Asian Villain, though?

Duh, the Howard Roark prototype: the Lonely, Unyielding, Sexy, Misunderstood Genius God-King with Aspergers! :)

[sabotabby]

Oh, perfect.

[springheel-jack.livejournal.com]

Fratricidal conflict like this is rather to be expected, especially when there's a sub-group who are getting consistently kicked in the teeth, and are seething about it for ages and ages, and then one of the people they thought was on their side shows up for work in teeth-kickin' boots. The reaction can only be ET TU.

This round of the inevitable conflict was quite depressing, because it is now exhibit A that White Liberals Don't Get It, Refuse To Get It, and Will Believe in Martian Foil-Hat Deconstructionist Conspiracies Rather Than Attempt to Get It. Occam's Razor could have solved this on the first day, but the entrenched racism of the white liberal is defended with all the armadas and projectiles that unreason has at its command.

[sabotabby]

This makes me sad. Unsurprised, but sad.

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

This round of the inevitable conflict was quite depressing, because it is now exhibit A that White Liberals Don't Get It, Refuse To Get It, and Will Believe in Martian Foil-Hat Deconstructionist Conspiracies Rather Than Attempt to Get It. Occam's Razor could have solved this on the first day, but the entrenched racism of the white liberal is defended with all the armadas and projectiles that unreason has at its command.

I love the way you put things.

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

I will TOTALLY do you that solid, my friend, assuming (ha ha) I can tell when _I_ am not wearing pants myself, ACK.

Novel of Doom YAY. I would love to read all the books in you that are busting to come out.

[sabotabby]

I could e-mail you the first six chapters of the Novel of Doom, if you're interested. But keep in mind that I've been working on it for years and it probably won't get done for years and people have been known to get frustrated with me for that.

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

....OMG YES PLZ. (Wait, my stupid gmail addy has my IRL name in it -- can you tell me your email first? Or is there an @livejournal email for you? I had to disable mine.)

[sabotabby]

I think if you e-mail sabotabby at livejournal it will forward directly to mine. Try it, and if you don't hear from me in the next few minutes, let me know.

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

Off I go!

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

Well crap! Did it not work?

[sabotabby]

It worked. You should have mails from me now.

[5-miles.livejournal.com]

me too! me too! I want to read it.

[5-miles.livejournal.com]

also, yes I will tell you when you need to put some pants on. I expect the same.

[sabotabby]

I am e-mailing it to you now.

[ironed_orchid]

I'm sure that it's far too early in 2009 to have had the definitive Cultural Appropriation/Racist Representation flamewar. I mean, there are months to go before Wiscon.

Good luck with your Novel of Doom.

[sabotabby]

Isn't there supposed to be an annual flamewar after Wiscon?

And thanks!

[ironed_orchid]

Yup. So we'll have plenty more flamewars before the year is over.