podcast friday

[sabotabby]

 This was a hard week to decide because there is so much good content that I'm still working through my regular roster of podcasts (seriously, DEATH // SENTENCE did an episode of Ringmaster and Julia Serano and Molly Conger have both been on It Could Happen Here). But I have to give a shoutout to my latest podcast obsession, Bad Hasbara: The World's Most Moral Podcast by Matt Lieb.

I don't know how interesting this will be to other people but I have never felt so completely seen by a podcast. Either you have no idea why, or you were immediately slamming the subscribe button when you heard the title, and I don't know if there's any middle ground on that. It's Matt Lieb talking about Israeli propaganda, largely of the sort that (North) American Ashkenazi Jews are inundated with from childhood but also that you've probably encountered if you've been online arguing about Israel and Palestine at all, and particularly since Oct. 7. 

I've enjoyed Matt as a guest on Bastards (he's most notorious for bringing a Jar Jar Binks soundboard to the Mengele ones), but I've never listened to his other podcasts because he mostly does TV rewatches, which I'm not interested in. He's very funny, though. Like, pitch back comedy of the kind that is appealing to me (see: Jar Jar, Mengele), and humour is a big part of this show and why he's the right guy to do it.

On to the episode: the one I'll highlight is Bad Hasbara 4: Daniel Maté, which is my favourite so far and the most recent one I listened to. Hmm, that name sounds familiar oh shit that's Gabor Maté's son. He is very cool in his own right. Like the other episodes, this one is long, not very structured, and is mostly the two of them having a conversation about a sprawling range of related topics, and while the comedy aspect is still very present, I almost wept from how much I related. Given Daniel's background, there's a lot about trauma and psychology in the discussion. The main question of the show (besides laughing at some very silly propaganda) is "how can liberal Zionists be okay with 30,000 and counting dead Palestinians in Gaza, most of them civilians and many of them children?" Daniel tackles the cultural and emotional dynamics of this, the fear that diaspora Jews (rightly) feel about anti-semitism and anti-semitic violence, the lack of belonging especially for those of us who are secular, and the ways in which Hasbara preys on these feelings. There's a line in there about how (paraphrasing) Hasbara pokes its finger into the wound where diasporic identity should be, which. Yeah. That's what it is. 

I don't agree with everything they say—for example, they're much kinder to Norman Finkelstein than I would be—but it's a fascinating and nuanced discussion that I think is really important to hear right now.

Comments

[greylock]

or you were immediately slamming the subscribe button
I've never slammed, smashed or clicked a subscribe button!

I've enjoyed Matt as a guest on Bastards (he's most notorious for bringing a Jar Jar Binks soundboard to the Mengele ones)

I was 9 or 10 when I heard a local 60 Minutes show on Mengelian experiments, I went to a camp in 2001, but I just did a double take at this.

I got lost after that. Mostly.

The main question of the show (besides laughing at some very silly propaganda) is "how can liberal Zionists be okay with 30,000 and counting dead Palestinians in Gaza, most of them civilians and many of them children?"

Well, it's clearly only 28,000 dead!
Checkmate, LIB!

I don't know how, as a diaspora of any kind, one can disconnect (Jewish or otherwise - it's a surprisingly strong pull, which Americans don't get as Americans don't travel).

IME, I've watched multiple disasters live, but the ones that hit my home country hit harder. I assume for people who are told the land matters more, it hits way harder.
(IDK much about my "home", but it hurt to see CCH demolished).

[symbioid]

Finkelstein rubs me the wrong way, even though I agree with his general policies/steadfast support for Palestine. What is it about him that you would be less kind about compared to the host/guest?

[sabotabby]

Ah well, because he's a piece of shit when it comes to everything else, unfortunately. TW: transphobia.

Basically one of those guys for whom persecution has rotted his brain and he'll graft onto anyone who's nice to him. Which includes both Palestine activists and TERFs, unfortunately.

[symbioid]

Yet again...
Goddamnit. There's a whole group of people who I think know better, but still engage with that sorta shit, and I hate that they do that (see also Kasparian, Cenk, Burgis, TiL, etc). Varn gets a pass, cuz despite his darkness listens and respects people and understand solidarity. The rest of these "liberals" with their regressive shit.

It's so depressing.

[sabotabby]

IME, I've watched multiple disasters live, but the ones that hit my home country hit harder. I assume for people who are told the land matters more, it hits way harder.

I think that's natural. But I don't, as a North American Jew, have any real connection to Israel (beyond I had two friends there and one defriended me when I referred to the response as genocide). I have closer family ties to Ukraine, and the attacks there were far more devastating emotionally. But still, it's more because I've been there and loved it there, my best friend is from there, I'm friends with someone living in Kyiv, etc., versus any particular ties to the land. My grandfather left for a reason.

Obviously I felt horrified by Oct. 7, as any normal person was. It was an atrocity. I just don't know why I should care more about it than I care about Gaza. Just because maybe a few thousand years ago my ancestors were from there?

Basically, a lot of this love and deep ties have to be manufactured, and that's the purpose of hasbara.

[greylock]

But I don't, as a North American Jew, have any real connection to Israel

I guess I assumed there would be *something* there. But there's a lot of propaganda around the idea of a 'homeland' (a non-specific home) I've probably internalised without realising it.

Admittedly, I'm trying to understand it all second or third (or sixth) hand, through a lens that doesn't come naturally to me.

I

[sabotabby]

One of the things that Daniel and Matt point out is that for North American Jews, the homeland is mainly (though not exclusively) Eastern Europe, but we got driven out of genocided, and that's the source of the trauma. So the Hasbara machine tries to bond us to Israel and takes advantage of that absence (where there was a language and culture that was stolen from us). I feel that absence—I mean, I don't speak Yiddish!—and the framing makes a lot of sense to me.

[greylock]

the homeland is mainly (though not exclusively) Eastern Europe,

The US obsession with Jerusalem being IT certainly clouds my judgement there. Loudest voices and all that. I'm sure there's reasons Australian jews don't decamp to Israel en masse (Malka Leifer aside - don't look her up if you don't know her).

I feel that absence—I mean, I don't speak Yiddish!—and the framing makes a lot of sense to me.

Man. Even I speak Yiddish! (I mean, I incorporate a few words here and there for some reason). :P

I did just have to look up Hasbara, since before today I'd never come across it as far as I know.

I remain dark at Putin for his fuckery. The ambassador in the UN was bullshit.

[frandroid]

> most notorious for bringing a Jar Jar Binks soundboard to the Mengele ones

haha oh dear yeah

> Daniel tackles the cultural and emotional dynamics of this

That's something I heard Hajo Meyer tackle a little bit years ago but I want to hear more on this topic...

[sabotabby]

haha oh dear yeah

Honestly, it's the only thing to do. It's such horrifying material that you have to go as fucked up as possible on the humour.

That's something I heard Hajo Meyer tackle a little bit years ago but I want to hear more on this topic...

Daniel really delivers a one-two punch of "it's understandable that you have these feelings and here is why but also here is why you need to get some perspective and your shit together."

[lokifan]

Thank you for pointing me towards the Julia Serano and Molly Conger episodes especially! All of this is going on my TBLT list.

[sabotabby]

And then there were more! I'm so behind on podcasts now lol.