Alien mind-rays and such

[sabotabby]

There has been another round of conspiracy theorizing over at anarchists. It seems like one of the most popular conspiracy theories these days (after "Jews faked the Holocaust!") is that the official story about 9-11 is...well, somewhat lacking. The Left, for obvious reasons, seems to be more willing to entertain such theories than the Right, and I am genuinely interested in knowing who among you believes what.

When it comes to conspiracy theories, and in particular to the Bush administration, I tend to go with Hanlon's Razor, "Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity," and its corollary, "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice."



[Poll #685162]

On a related note, and this is not snark, I'm not entirely sure what a "disinfo agent" or what a "confusionist" is, although I keep running into the latter online. Are they the same as Discordians? Why do they keep showing up on anarchists?

---

And now, for your Ted Nugent Quote of the Day:

Though modern man has mostly come to depend on technical services and indulgent conveniences, the pulse of the warrior rages on—even downtown. Mother Nature can be a bitch, but we love her madly anyway. That flash of history from caveman to European to pioneer to city dude reveals a powerful force of intellect, courage, reason, and creativity that is alive and well. Leaping into the millennium on the backs of strong, uppity entrepreneurs and timeless Jeremiah Johnsons, the pecking order is accurate and in place. And there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Conform to this truism or perish. You get what you deserve.

Comments

[xol0tl.livejournal.com]

I think the 911 conspiracy theory stuff is our generation's version of the stories about a faked lunar landing by NASA.

[gordonzola.livejournal.com]

perfect analogy!

[xol0tl.livejournal.com]

BTW, you should make a desktop calendar out of those Ted Nugent quotes. Course, that might involve paying the Motor City Madman royalties of some sort, but whatever...

[sabotabby]

I think the 911 conspiracy theory stuff is our generation's version of the stories about a faked lunar landing by NASA.

I wonder how widespread that belief is/was.

BTW, you should make a desktop calendar out of those Ted Nugent quotes. Course, that might involve paying the Motor City Madman royalties of some sort, but whatever...

I could illustrate them! Do you think anyone would want that?

[xol0tl.livejournal.com]

Hell yeah!

[xol0tl.livejournal.com]

The lunar landing stuff is strangely common. I have a student from Peru whose father was in the military there and told her that the moon landings were fake...

[(Anonymous)]

there was a documentary on al arabiya tv channel about the landings being faked. with pasted together bits of govt offficials going- 'yes' and the like. ha, but depressing.

[ex-melimeli728.livejournal.com]

oh, that was me. :)

[sabotabby]

That would be totally hilarious.

[feath.livejournal.com]

One of the things ObL said, right after the twin towers, was "I did not do it." Now, if he actually told the truth (what terrorist WOULDN'T say 'yes, yes! we did it! nanner nanner!') it leaves an interesting question, just who did?

As we know now, the Bush admin is into spin. What comes out of the white house has no bases in reality, only what it want's us to believe. It wanted us to belive ObL and A-Q did it. Of everything and everyone I've heard, I sadly believe ObL's word, more than Bushes.

[earthlingmike.livejournal.com]

I agree with the idea that Bush is into spin. So are 99% of the rest of American politicians. I think it is important to always keep in mind that Bush was obviously determined to go to war in Iraq no matter how absurd or how much spin was required.

[sabotabby]

The sense that I've got is that it's a burning-of-the-Reichstag-type scenario; Bush needs a big event like Sept. 11 to happen so that he can get away with invading Iraq.

The only thing is, he didn't need a big event to do that, or anything else.

[rohmie.livejournal.com]

Well, historians are still arguing over whether the Nazis set the fire themselves or only exploited the event, but everyone agrees that they exploited the event to strengthen the executive. That said, Reichstag analogies therefore don't automatically go into conspiracy theory territory because actual involvement in the attack becomes a separate issue.

[earthlingmike.livejournal.com]

That is a good point. And I have always kind of wondered in the back of my head why they didn't just do the whole thing quietly. People are f!cking clueless anyway. (well, Americans are)

[terry-terrible.livejournal.com]

Osama first denied he was invovled (probley to try and stop an invasion of Afgahnistan), but I think a tape came out the spring 2002 were he boasted about doing it.

[feath.livejournal.com]

I have always found it amusing when ObL seems to 'help' Bush's falling popularity by suddenly makeing a tape that threatens the US that he is coming for them.

I've not believed any tapes of ObL since the one that was shown...gosh, how long ago? Dec 01? Dec 02? He was talking to some Arab, and the voices were pretty garbled, and didn't quite match the lips, and WHY were they speaking English? but it clearly showed him making plans on attacking the US. The problem was, we were informed it happened (iirc) in Dec. of what ever year it was, but in fact, HAD to have been done in Nov. For two reasons, 1) he never mentioned the death of a person (who's name I don't remember right now) which he would have done, and 2) there was no food or drink on the table. An Arab not offer hospitality? laughable. The ONLY time there wouldn't be food and drink layed out is during Ramadan. 4-6 weeks BEFORE it was stated the tape was made and 4-6 weeks BEFORE the death of the person.

Every muslim in the world laughed at that tape.

[terry-terrible.livejournal.com]

I can't recall the specific tapes your refering to, but though what you say makes sense I won't comment on it due to my ignorance on the subject.

[earthlingmike.livejournal.com]

I heard all of those theories a few years ago. People also attempted to warn Bush that the levee might break when Katrina was aiming for New Orleans and he claimed he didn't know. I think I'm leaning towards thinking Bush knew of the attacks and purposely did nothing, that is the extent of my conspiracy theory views regarding that.

[sabotabby]

I'd never rule out lying after the fact—that happens all the time. But that's not a conspiracy; that's just covering one's arse.

[earthlingmike.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah I guess if he didn't do the planning, it's not actually conspiracy on his part.

Now that I think about it, I'm thinking it would be possible to come up with a theory that being encouraged by success wih 9/11, Bush had this idea:

allow a catastrophe to happen in New Orleans as well, and then make the government look good when the government cleans up the mess and saves the day.

And then you could say that his plans simply completely backfired.

[flummoxicated.livejournal.com]

I think that BushCo has taken advantage of the hysteria caused by the 9/11 attacks. Especially in light of the recent discovery of notes from a Bush aide after the attack, along the lines of "can we tie this to Iraq?"

[sabotabby]

It's the discovery of that sort of thing that makes me doubt any conspiracy theory. Someone eventually talks, and these folks aren't particularly subtle about their plans.

[nom-de-grr.livejournal.com]

1) I like your Jabbar Gibson icon. I wrote a couple of good journal entries about the Gibson media coverage here and here.

2) Is Holocaust denial actually rampant in the anarchist community?

3) I have mixed feeling about 9-11 conspiracy theories. On the one hand, Bush & Co certainly did take, and continue to take full advantage of the attacks in a very post-Reichstag Fire sort of way. I do not believe they would have been capable of selling a great number of their policies without it. Does this imply that they were responsible for the attacks? Not necessarily, but it does imply a potential motive.

Also, I personally know a person who was involved in the 9-11 investigation and was privy to some inside information. She is subject to a gag order, but she is also a huge blabbermouth. In any case, she described to me some of the things she saw as part of the investigation, and she says that what she learned absolutely convinced her that the attacks were, in part at least, an inside job. Do I believe her, or rather do I believe her interpretation? ehhhh... well, I definitely don't think she's a nut or a liar, but while she may have had access to certain interesting bits of info that the rest of us don't, I kind of doubt that what she saw forms a complete picture of the attacks. Still, what she told me unsteadied what I held to be assumed truths about 9-11.

[terry-terrible.livejournal.com]

1. I love your icon, is it form the "communist party" t-shirt?

2. Everybody nkows that it was the mossad did it, thier responsible for everything bad! lol.

[nom-de-grr.livejournal.com]

It is.

Of course.

[sabotabby]

1) Thanks! Jabbar Gibson is my hero.

2) anarchists (like free_palestine) gets a flood of neo-Nazi-types every so often. There's a higher level of tolerance for them in anarchists than there is in other communities, though. And quite often, they're not overt neo-Nazis, but they're so messed in the head that they take a lot of the subtler propaganda at face value and echo anti-Semitic talking points.

3) I have a similar issue with a journalist friend of mine. He is rather smart, and often privy to information that other people don't have. Occasionally he will say something that seems a bit nuts at the time and it'll be proven conclusively later. He is pretty convinced that it was an inside job. I'm still not sure that they're even competent enough to pull off something like that.

[nom-de-grr.livejournal.com]

Why do you think anarchists is more tolerant of neo-Nazis than other communities? And do you think that this tendency can be generalized to the real world anarchist community beyond livejournal?

"They" meaning the Bush administration? Policy makers don't have to be competent. Only the people carrying out and enforcing the policy must be. I have no doubt that there are a great many individuals and groups in our military/intelligence community with the expertise and competence to carry out such an operation. None of this is necessarily indicative of some sort of shadowy conspiracy planned and carried out by God knows whom, but I wouldn't rule it out based on speculations of competency.

[sabotabby]

A bunch of reasons: anarchists has pretty loose moderation, and a lot of people think that there should be no moderation or banning at all. (In free_palestine, neo-Nazism will pretty much guarantee an insta-ban.) Many anarchists don't understand what neo-Nazis are or the methods they use. And yeah, in general I think the anarchist movement is more tolerant of wingnuttery in the name of inclusiveness -- which is actually not very inclusive, since the presence of wingnuts alienates sane people.

I get your second point

[rohmie.livejournal.com]

Well, as Bush's former Secretary of the Treasury, Paul O'Neil, pointed out in The Price of Loyalty, the Bush League had a hard-on for Iraq as soon as they entered office.

[rohmie.livejournal.com]

And there is no questioning that they would welcome whatever excuse presented itself. They said as much in a Project for the New American Century white paper back in 2000.

Similarly the PNAC blueprint of September 2000 states that the process of transforming the US into "tomorrow's dominant force" is likely to be a long one in the absence of "some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor".

- The Guardian, Saturday September 6th, 2003

[gordonzola.livejournal.com]

I hate conspiracy theorists. Like things aren't so bad that we need to make them worse?

First of all, they're stupid. The world is complicated and though certain social forces exist nothing is 100% dominant. Conpiracy theorists want everything wrapped up with a little bow.

Secondly, they are embarrassing. in the same newspaper or conversation covering real issues like the Patriot Act or war, the conspiracy theorist pops up to ruin everyone's credibility. 9/11 nuts are offensive to anarchists.

Third, the real lesson is that the right is ready with contingency plans to destroy us. The Patriot Act: ready to go in time of crisis. there's no conspiracy theory there, the right simply (much due to funding) is better prepared and more organized than us. Maybe the conspiracy is that the conspiracy theorists are on the payroll of the right, to make regular folks even more convinced that the left is a bunch of wingnuts.

Fourth, conspiracy theory leaves no room for resistance. The power of those in power is so strong that they know and anticipate everything. The only hope in these scenarios is that the truth is beamed out to people and suddenly everyone understands that they are oppressed (like in "Serenity") and evil is toppled. Well, it's a great theory to explain why you don't need to spend any time doing real organizing.

[earthlingmike.livejournal.com]

"First of all, they're stupid. The world is complicated and though certain social forces exist nothing is 100% dominant. Conpiracy theorists want everything wrapped up with a little bow."

I agree. Things are not that easily organized, the world is too chaotic. Besides, if they were smart enough to do that, they'd also be smart enough to know it's a stupid way to be.

[sabotabby]

Your last point is, to me, the biggest issue. It's disempowering—what happens when the truth gets beamed out, anyway?

[gordonzola.livejournal.com]

what do you mean? Evil is vanquished. it simply gives up and takes its punishment like a man.

[human-loser.livejournal.com]

what happens when the truth gets beamed out, anyway?

The ship gets repaired, but omgwashisDEAD!!!one!1!!!cry!!!!!1

[ironed_orchid]

Oh Noes!11!!!

[sabotabby]

*dies*

[ironed_orchid]

First of all, they're stupid. The world is complicated and though certain social forces exist nothing is 100% dominant. Conpiracy theorists want everything wrapped up with a little bow.

Yep, it's very simplistic thinking. It's also the sort of thinking of someone who want's there to be some omniscient omnipotent power in control of the world.

[terry-terrible.livejournal.com]

It never happened! The WTC is still there, all of the ground zero rubble was just a super-duper high tech hologram and the "vitcims" were kidnapped by aliens like in Close encounters of the third kind.


But seriously, conspiracy theories like this thrive becuase it's more easy to explain away horrible events or systems of opression through "puppet master" thoeries instead of facing the complex and dynamic intitutions and power systems that really control the world.

Also, these theories provide comfort to people beucase it's more comforting that even "bad" people ae in control, atleast someone "is" in control instead of the harsh reality that bad shit sometimes just happens for no reason.

Even though Bush and this cadre is pretty crazy, they're not dumb enough to take a risk of people finding a plot to thier own countrymen to take more power than they have, the risks outwiegh the benfits.

Also, Al Qaeda has more enough motives and the mean carry out an attack like that.

[sabotabby]

I know! It was never there in the first place!

Hanlon's Razor

[rohmie.livejournal.com]

This administration handled 9-11 just like the Gipper's handled the repeated Beirut truck bombings.

From Paul Slansky’s book The Clothes Have No Emperor, Pages 110 and 111 (Fireside, NY, 1989):

9/26/84 - President Reagan claims the latest Beirut bombing is the fault of Jimmy Carter, who he said "presided over the destruction of our intelligence capability." Carter responds that Reagan tends "to blame his every mistake and failure on me and others who served before him."

10/3/84 - A House Intelligence Committee report finds "no logical explanation" for the lapse in security at the embassy in Beirut, since State Department and embassy officials had plenty of reason to suspect that a bombing attempt was not only possible but probable.

10/5/84 - "I don't think he's read the report in detail. It's five and a half pages, double-spaced." - Larry Speakes responding to the question of whether President Reagan has read the House report on the latest Beirut truck bombing.

Re: Hanlon's Razor

[sabotabby]

"I don't think he's read the report in detail. It's five and a half pages, double-spaced."

Bwahahaha.

[springheel-jack.livejournal.com]

I've never made up my mind about "Al-Qaeda did it, and the Bush administration knowingly did nothing to prevent it."

[sabotabby]

That's usually the extent to which I'll buy that it could be a conspiracy. I can't see them actively doing something, but passively? Maybe. I'd still need more proof, though.

[human-loser.livejournal.com]

Someone set up us the bomb!

This is the part where you are awesome!

[sabotabby]

[bike4fish.livejournal.com]

I find the Reichstag fire an interesting analogy. It doesn't matter if Marinus Vander Lubbe did it all by himself, was encouraged by Nazis to do it, was assisted by Nazis doing it, or was innocent and blamed for it - the Nazis used it as an excuse to convince the German people that they needed dictatorial powers to protect the country.

While not much of a conspiracy fan, I do believe that the capture or killing of Osama bin Ladin would do much to help the political direction of the present US administation, unless another big terrorist attack happens shortly thereafter. Whether this is actually influencing efforts to locate the guy would be speculation.

[sabotabby]

I'm prone to snark about finding bin Laden. He does have a habit of turning up when the polls start to slip.

[rohmie.livejournal.com]

I do wonder why Michael Moore never jumped on Gregg Palast's BBC segment claiming the Bush told the FBI to back of their investigations of Bin Laden and the Saudis (really crappy video with decent sound, transcript) Has it since been discredited? If so, why hasn't the BBC offered a retraction and an apology? Do Moore and Palast have some sort of rivalry going on?

Off Topic

[rohmie.livejournal.com]

From The Onion:

Are Your Cats Old Enough to Learn About Jesus?

... Kittens' hearts, at birth, are filled with what theologians call "original mischief." ... If you give your cat a rubber Jesus to play with, it will sense that there's more to this toy. If you give it a scratching cross, it will contemplate Christ's love and ultimate sacrifice while it stretches and sharpens its claws. I myself have put an image of Jesus at the bottom of my cats' food bowls. That way, when they finish their food, the face of He who provided it is revealed unto them. ...

Re: Off Topic

[sabotabby]

That's just brilliant.

I think my cat is a Satanist.

Re: Off Topic

[rohmie.livejournal.com]

Awww. Is Lucifer at the bottom of Marinetti's bowl?

Re: Off Topic

[sabotabby]

I haven't checked.

[rohmie.livejournal.com]

Re: Ted

"to European"!?

The fucker ain't subtle about his racism is he?

Keep the quotes coming, I might be able to use some of this shit in my book. Read it with that in mind. You are my official Nugent researcher now.

[sabotabby]

He likes POC as long as they're not armed.

At some point, I'll have to transcribe that entire bit I told you about, where he gleefully fantasies about killing two guys. I think it's the perfect description of his mindset.

[rohmie.livejournal.com]

I'm less interested in his personal fantasies than his blatantly racist statements and bogus statistical arguments. Yes, they are certainly related, but I think I'll have more slightly luck tacking the later two onto his political fans than the former. After all, I'm writing a book about conservatism as a whole rather than about Ted Nugent.

[jhfurnish.livejournal.com]

It's a shame. He used to speak well of Native Americans in early songs, such as 'The Great White Buffalo' ('Double Live Gonzo', 1975).

[sabotabby]

He does speak well of Native Americans in a sense. He sees himself as a descendant of some mythical Injun warrior-type, which is why he can engage in the most offensive sort of cultural appropriation.

[jhfurnish.livejournal.com]

I wish the fucker would roll over like a dog after his last hunt. He can't get the album sales or the roaring crowds he used to, so now he gets his glory days back as a nazi pundit.

He's fucking pitiful.

[earthlingmike.livejournal.com]

This is a very thought provoking entry.

I heard 2 or 3 theories about how the last U.S. election was rigged, none of them sounded convincing to me. I don't have much trouble believing that plenty of people voted for Bush anyway. It's not a pleasant thing to believe, but that doesn't change the statistics.

[sabotabby]

I've met a lot of dumb people. I can buy that the first one was rigged, but not so much the second.

[rackletang.livejournal.com]

I'm not going to read the comments on this one, just going to inject a personal note. I was a corporate travel agent in September 2001, and I put a client on the plane that hit the Pentagon. She was real, the plane I put her on was real, the eyewitnesses I am acquainted with are real, the flight manifests that I saw were accurate, and her orphaned son is sure as hell real.

Sore subject.

I only clicked one box, because honestly, some stuff (like the whole "was Osama on the CIA payroll?" thing) is plausible but unproven to my satisfaction.

[sabotabby]

Ouch. I'm really sorry.

[rackletang.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

[jhfurnish.livejournal.com]

Where are the parts of the plane that hit the Pentagon? Where is the fuselage? I want to see it.

It may be a sore subject for you, but I have never seen pics of a plane crash that didn't show parts of the airplane.

[rackletang.livejournal.com]

Big metal object hits big solid building. Shit happens. I'm not an engineer, just someone who has heard from folks who lived nearby and saw the plane as it went by, and put someone on board. They identified the remains of my client, what they could find.

You enjoy your theories, I'll just continue to live with my guilt and pain. Thanks for attempting to debate me on something when I've already indicated my discomfort with the discussion, though. You're a peach. Really.

[neoplasm.livejournal.com]

The powers that be laugh when we quibble.

[sabotabby]

Yeah, but I think it's important to be critical.

[caprinus.livejournal.com]

Disinfo agent/confusionist -- I'm guessing means plants on government payroll whose role is to reduce knowledge exchange to cyclical flamewars and other stupid shit any time anyone gets too close to any uncomfortable truth? A lot of trolls could be explained by being paid discussion saboteurs, but I fear most of them are volunteers :)

[sabotabby]

If that's the case, I really would like to get paid for it. I'm quite good at it, and that way, I could quit my day job.

[caprinus.livejournal.com]

No no, see, like I said, I think in fact most of this work is done by independently-acting volunteers... So there really isn't a market for your indisputable skills.

What we need is clearly a Confusionist Union!

[pretzelsalt.livejournal.com]

Have you seen "911 in plane site"?

It's an interesting debunk of the information we were given. It doesn't claim to say what happened - it just proves what did not.

[sabotabby]

Hmm, never even heard of that one.

[pretzelsalt.livejournal.com]

http://www.911inplanesite.com/911synopsis.html

[caprinus.livejournal.com]

The word "proves" being used rather loosely.

[pretzelsalt.livejournal.com]

then "points out"?

Prove may be a problematic term - but an intact roof line on the pentagon is also problematic and proven by news footage.

[earthlingmike.livejournal.com]

Then it starts to sound like the theories that Lance Armstrong was cheating.

[caprinus.livejournal.com]

You mean... he never really went to the Moon!?

[earthlingmike.livejournal.com]

No. But he did legitimately win the Tour de France a record number of times.

[caprinus.livejournal.com]

pssst i knew that! :) darn html stripped off the /sarcasm tags

[earthlingmike.livejournal.com]

lol. Yeah that has happened to me, I don't know how people do those fake tags/I'm too lazy to figure it out.