PSA

[sabotabby]

If you believe that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and sundry conflicts throughout the Middle East, will never be solved while current political and economic structures are intact, then I think you're likely right.

If you believe that said conflicts will not be resolved because you are the sort of curmudgeon who believes that people will always be fighting for some reason in one part of the world or another, then I disagree with you, but I'll shrug it off and not think any less of you for being cynical. I like cynics—I am one, at times—but if I didn't think a better world was possible, I'd have to pretty much give up, y'know?

If, however, you believe any of the following:

• there is something different about people in the Middle East that makes them fight more than people elsewhere, either because of a genetic factor or because of deeply rooted cultural values;

• Jews and Arabs have never gotten along and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been going on since the beginning of time and they never will get along because of something moronic written in some book somewhere;

• the ones who want to fight should be put on an island somewhere where they can duke it out and everyone else will shrug their shoulders and go on with their lives, and furthermore you are very clever for coming up with this solution all by yourself;

• "they" don't want peace;

• a resolution will only be reached once one population is deported or slaughtered; or

• the only way there will ever be peace in the Middle East is if a) the desert is turned to glass, b) the desert is turned into a parking lot, or c) someone drops a giant fifth-dimensional alien squid on a heavily populated area;

then really, you are an idiot, you lack historical perspective, and you are a racist schmuck. I got over that "turn the desert to glass" bullshit in high school at around the same time I got over Ayn Rand. It's basically the fascist end of the liberal "a plague on both their houses/cycle of violence" mentality and is just as absurd. The only reasons to think that you're living at the end of history are because you have an ego problem or are heavily invested in your own apathy, or both.

Yeah, just braid my hair and call me Pollyanna, motherfuckers. This too shall pass.

Comments

[kappsgurl.livejournal.com]

I don't know much about it to be honest. I'll blame it on me being lazy, but everything I've seen in the news seems pro-Israel. I'd be genuinely interested in a blog from you where you lay out the best solution in a sabotabby world.

[sabotabby]

Well, my best possible solution would be worldwide socialism. :) Short of that, I believe the most just solution is one secular state with constitutional provisions in place to guard against any one ethnic group getting too much power. It's not the sort of thing that I expect to see in my lifetime, though it's a possibility, since the fragmentation of Palestinian territory has eliminated the possibility of the classic realistic solution (which is a return to the 1948 UN-established partition plan or some variation thereof).

But I'm not arrogant enough to think I get to decide these things. I'm a Jew living in Canada, and I have the privilege to turn my back tomorrow and pretend none of this shit is happening. It's up to the people living there to develop a workable solution. Western interference so far has only caused a clusterfuck.

[livingfossil.livejournal.com]

What if I believe that carpet bombing neighborhoods should be tried at show trial?

[sabotabby]

Perfectly acceptable.

[jenlight.livejournal.com]

I <3 U.

[sabotabby]

I get fiery right before bed sometimes.

I <3 the cute puppy thing you posted, by the way.

[dagibbs.livejournal.com]

I grew up through the cold war. For much of that time there were quite good reasons to believe that I was living at the end of history. I no longer believe that to be the case, but I don't think it is or was an ego problem. I think it was a not unreasonable evaluation of the world -- I felt the odds were stacked against me making it to my thirties.

[sabotabby]

I think that's different. When each side has the capacity to not only obliterate each other, but obliterate the entire world several times over, it's logical to assume that the conflict can lead to the end of the human race, and therefore history. But the "end of history" meme wasn't common until after the Cold War. And while the Israelis have nukes, I don't think they brought enough for the whole class, fortunately.

[rbowspryte.livejournal.com]

I got over that "turn the desert to glass" bullshit in high school at around the same time I got over Ayn Rand.

Fuckin' Ay!

you have an ego problem or are heavily invested in your own apathy, or both.

ZinG!

So many folks I know pride themselves on impressing others with what an asshole they can be and what freakin' insulting thing can next come out their mouth. I think their apathy is a mask for a humanistic/diplomatic or sheer cognitive puzzle too hard for them to crack or too frustrating to ponder. Like parents who only know discipline through violence (If I hit it it will stop.)

Hey I'll help braid your hair if I can remember how. You can braid mine too.

[troubleinchina.livejournal.com]

So many folks I know pride themselves on impressing others with what an asshole they can be and what freakin' insulting thing can next come out their mouth.

I agree with this comment completely.

Also, I am braiding my hair right now.

[turkishb.livejournal.com]

But I already made the down payment on the squid. This is now your problem.

[sabotabby]

Mass calamari?

[metalana.livejournal.com]

The Middle East conflict is rather unpleasant to read about, so I have remained quite ignorant. So I was under the impression that Jews & Arabs have been conflicting for a long time. Can you point me to some more accurate history?

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

Actually only since Zionists started trying to buy up land in Palestine (early 20th century). Before that Jews had been living peacefully in large numbers in the Islamic world for centuries. No pogroms in Baghdad or Damascus. Historically it's Christians and Jews who don't get on (or, more accurately, Christians who persecute Jews). Favourite Jew/Arab coxistence story; Maimonides was Saladin's personal physician.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Yep... that's exactly how it is, "they" don't want peace.

Ummm, which "they" are we talking about? I know that Jews are white in this context and thus and "us", but one can never remember if Jews ever manage to get rid of their scapegoat reputation... 'cause ya know, Jews=Israel so very nicely and Palestinians=Terrorists just as sweetly.

*wishes she was an ostrich*

[sabotabby]

I encountered some "they don't want peace" from some folks at the demo too. It seems to be going around.

[austintacious.livejournal.com]

Thank you for addressing the "Glass Bowl Argument." I hear a lot of that idiocy down here in Texas. Assholes.

[sabotabby]

I propose re-education camps where people who make the glass bowl argument are forced to watch film and look at photos of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki until they throw up.

[jordansc.livejournal.com]

"If you believe that said conflicts will not be resolved because you are the sort of curmudgeon who believes that people will always be fighting for some reason in one part of the world or another, then I disagree with you, but I'll shrug it off and not think any less of you for being cynical. I like cynics—I am one, at times—but if I didn't think a better world was possible, I'd have to pretty much give up, y'know?"

My Freshmen always resort to this argument. Since the dawn of time, X problem has existed, therefore it always will and there's really no point of thinking about it any further. This is usually followed by a sketch of human nature that includes the problem, as if we're all just equipped with genes that code for racism and factory farming. There's something to be said for cynicism, but I've lost all patience for this sort of fatalism.

[ironed_orchid]

Freshmen tend to be really deterministic thinkers. Some of them get over it. One of mine even apologized a couple of years later.

[dmlaenker.livejournal.com]

I think that Jews and Palestinians do want peace; but I also believe a majority of them (or at least those in power) want victory more than they want peace.

I wish I knew how to change that.

[sabotabby]

In a conflict situation, everyone involved wants victory more than they want peace*. This can be said for every war, just or unjust.

* And it's understandable, actually, I think it's quite natural to desire dignity above peace.

[seanmonster.livejournal.com]

What if I believe that Israel has a national equivalent of Battered Child Syndrome?

[culpster.livejournal.com]

BCS is an ugly thing at age 62, take it from me.

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

Two things:

1. The tribal nature of the Arab world leads to territories being of huge importance.

2. When a culture has the word "thank you" being the same as "thank god" it's hard to separate religion from political actions.

[sabotabby]

Neither of these convince me that the conflict cannot end. Far worse conflicts with much higher body counts have ended.

P.S. This rant was not directed at you but at your appallingly ignorant friend.

[culpster.livejournal.com]

The globe poll ran, what, 91-9 in favour of 'not in our lifetime'... Too bad they didn't break it down like this, something tells me the international socialist option was not heavily voted :)

I have been tending toward Apocalyptic Optimism, ie 'this must change, some mysterious way, because if it doesn't then ALL EARTHLINGS WILL DIE.' But as usual this is an attitude not an analysis.

And, really, though I'm not pimping for any of the Group B stuff, I AM an idiot, as became clear after reading a couple I. F. Stones. What the fuck do I know what's going on 'over there'? I'm like a Latvian pulling for Quebec separation because I read some Leo Panitch.

I just know terror when I see it, and tend not to like it.

[sabotabby]

"Not in our lifetime" isn't the same as "not ever."

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Watchmen reference FTW.

[sabotabby]

I'm a bit obsessed with Watchmen lately (you know, it's been in the news and all) so my solution to all problems seems to be "drop it down an elevator shaft" or "drop a giant squid on it," depending on my mood.

[apperception.livejournal.com]

That was a pleasure to read. Also, you're rather hot when you're pissed.

[sabotabby]

You should have seen me! All fired up, right hand on the mouse, left fist in the air, crying: "Something is wrong! On the internet!"

[99catsaway.livejournal.com]

"they" don't want peace;

After having a big discussion about it this weekend (actually, many small discussions) I'm not really sure of anything about that anymore. I'm more pro-Palestine than my boyfriend is (the person I've been discussing this with) but he just keeps bringing up the fact that Gaza elected Hamas, and he can't get over that. And I have a hard time getting over it too, to be honest.

Also my dogmatic atheism (it's been growing over the years) is keeping me from sympathizing with the religious fundamentalism on both sides.

[dagibbs.livejournal.com]

Gaza (and much of the rest of the occupied territories) did elect Hamas. But this wasn't so much in favour of terrorism as a protest against the corruption of the existing government, and its inability to deliver services -- which Hamas was doing well on the local level. At least, that is my understanding of the situation.

Also, what is terrorism or not really depends on the point of view and the person or persons defining the acts. e.g. Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

[fr-defenestrato.livejournal.com]

Yes but.

• Jews and Arabs have never gotten along and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been going on since the beginning of time and they never will get along because of something moronic written in some book somewhere;

That many moronic things written in some books somewhere have been used as justification for millennia of warfare and all comprised atrocities is inarguable. That they 'never will get along' is just a grumpy, aghast corollary: not very helpful but not necessarily the most outlandish belief about what shall come to pass in the pantheon of outlandish beliefs about what shall come to pass.

[sabotabby]

The thing is, eventually all of those wars ended, at least for long periods of time. The wars are never just because of the moronic books—they are economic and political and land disputes that the books are used to justify. My proof is that I encounter people of different faiths every single day, and we manage not to kill each other despite the fact that they probably sincerely believe that I'm going to hell.

[bike4fish.livejournal.com]

Wait - I thought the squid idea was pretty good.

[sabotabby]

Yes, but now this LJ entry exists as proof of who was behind the squid idea so we're all still screwed.

[caudelac.livejournal.com]

Basically, my 2 cents-- two things need to happen here:

Israle/Palestine need to be combined in a singular, secular state. Jews and Muslims can, I think, due to the restrictive nature of their religious laws, only be truly protected (alongside the natural rights of individual citizens) by a state dedicated to ensuring religious freedom for all of its citizens. Such a state would be dedicated to ensuring that Halacha and Sharia could be carried out quietly-- AS LONG AS SUCH DID NOT INTERFERE WITH BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS, or were enforced on non-practitioners of those religions, as much as possible. Do I think this would be easy or without problems? Of course not. But is it the solution that would ensure things like, oh, Muslim homes being destroyed or denied building permits because of where they wish to dwell could not happen, as well as preventing the persecution of Jews that Israel was created to prevent? I think so. At the very least, it would give recourse to those prosecuted. But I believe that all state should be separate from religion; I take the opposite view as Dostoevsky and think that the state has a responsibility to protect the practitioners of any given religion from persecution, and everyone else from religious restriction.

2) Jerusalem must become, like Vatican City, an independent religious city-state ruled by a triumvirate of Jew, Muslim, and Christian representatives, or at least Jew and Muslim, but neutral as much as possible. Either way, allowing it to remain a point of contention is... bad. I can think of no better term.

But seriously, the Jews (all Jews, especially the Israelis) ought to be considering how to contribute more to Tikkun Olam, rather than being bristly when it comes to their Arab neighbors (which I mean in a sesame street, 'these are the people in your neighborhood' kind of way-- the folks you have to live with, whether you like it or not). And as to the Muslims... I'm far less familiar with their beliefs than with the Jews, but I hardly think that peace is beyond them either, and that they can find repairing the world an undesirable thing.

Oddly enough, it seems that most of the things I'm hearing on the news (I listen mostly to NPR, admittedly), are very pro-Palestine, and are if nothing else, being quite chilly towards the Israeli actions here, and critical of American silence on the matter.

But that could be just me.

[flintultrasparc.livejournal.com]

Actually, I don't think religion and specifically Halacha and Sharia are really at the root of this conflict.

It's far more about nationalism and a secular jewish ethnic identity, and it's role as a settler state and the dispossession of the indigenous arabs. The PFLP was always a secular outfit. You have to understand how figures like George Habash fit into the conflict. Atheistic (and agnostic) jews are so cliche as a stereotype, and not just in the journals of nice jewish girls against the occupation like sabotabby that it has it's own Wikipedia reference and claims that among Israeli jews... 44% are secular, 35% don't believe in God.

The U.S. is a far more religious society.

When civil society suffers from war, and secular and leftist organizations are systematically destroyed, people often turn to both religion and militant acts of desperation. Iraq, for example, was once a very secular society: next to Israel, women there had the most rights of anywhere else in the middle east.

However, your idea for a single, secular state in the Israel/Palestine has merit. The late Edward Said, once a supporter of a a two state solution, eventually came out for a single state: "after 50 years of Israeli history, classic Zionism has provided no solution to the Palestinian presence. I therefore see no other way than to begin now to speak about sharing the land that has thrust us together, sharing it in a truly democratic way with equal rights for all citizens."

[queerasmoi.livejournal.com]

See, the more I hear about the Middle East right now, the more I just want to ram my head against a wall. I can't really say that I "support" any side because it's all violent. The only side I support is "stop killing"... and I have trouble seeing exactly how I, also a Canadian Jew, can do much to advance that cause.

A few people have asked me if I'm ever going to use my Birthright Israel privilege to get a free trip... and my answer has always been no (and that privilege will expire when I turn 26 in four months). I last visited Israel with my family, roughly around the time Saddam Hussein decided Iraq would invade Kuwait. Perhaps if some time in the distant future, Israel is no longer a 15 on a scale of 1 to clusterfuck, I will consider it.

[flintultrasparc.livejournal.com]

Take the trip, visit Palestine.

[flintultrasparc.livejournal.com]

Hollywood cut the psychic alien squid. Fan boys everywhere will launch a jihad to defend the holy writ of the Moore prophet.

[sabotabby]

The squid may be out of the movie, but it will always be there in my heart—and my nightmares.

At least it isn't going to be this awesome script. Which I think Moore actually approved of, believe it or not.

[arnavtul.livejournal.com]

gurgles
flails
cries

[sabotabby]

*hugs*

[sadie-sabot.livejournal.com]

co signed.


and, I'm tired of seeing well meaning people say "oh but it's all so COMPLICATED" or "both sides need to stop the violence."

[sabotabby]

It is complicated, but so are a lot of things. I was just thinking, and I didn't want to Godwin in the post itself, but look at the atrocities committed on both sides during WWII. And look at most of those countries now. If that can end—if Germany can go from being a haven of tolerance in the 20s to a genocidal terrorist state in the 30s and 40s to the awesome place that it is now, then there is really hope for all of us.

[terry-terrible.livejournal.com]

WTF? I post that like that.

I was supposed to be:


• Jews and Arabs have never gotten along and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been going on since the beginning of time and they never will get along because of something moronic written in some book somewhere;

Cry Bernard Lewis *crocodile tear*

The only reasons to think that you're living at the end of history are because you have an ego problem or are heavily invested in your own apathy, or both

This should be tattooed on the forehead of every hardcore Marxist and Neocon. Congrats, you've won the internets today :)