An actual fucking honest question

[sabotabby]

Why do people write "f'ing" and "sh*t" on the internet?

It's one of my minor irritations with the rather frequent flamewars that I get in. People want to swear at me and somehow can't bring themselves to do it. I don't know why this is; I swear like a sailor myself and I am hardly going to get offended by someone else's potty mouth.

If you want to say "fucking," say "fucking." If you want to say "shit," say "shit." Putting a symbol somewhere in the word is not going to make it somehow less offensive. I can maybe see why you might type "N-Bomb" or something, to avoid triggering racialized people, but that's a special case.

Or, if you are of delicate sensibilities such that you cannot type the word "fucking" without blushing, why not say "flipping" or "frakking" or "frelling" or any one of a number of sci-fi or old-timey swears designed for the ears of children and/or network TV. Yes, you will sound like a church lady and/or a mega-nerd, but I guarantee it's 100% less embarrassing than writing "f'ing."

The most befuddling thing to me is when I'm in a perfectly fucking civilized conversation (this is sarcasm) with a gentleperson of differing beliefs (this is most people) and they say something like, "I hope u f'ing get beheaded by ISIS u f'ing b***ch." It's fine to utter death threats but God forbid someone types a swear.

I really don't get it; can anyone explain?

Comments

[mycrazyhair.livejournal.com]

At one point, some of my friends used these constructions to avoid triggering net-nanny software. I suspect the software has figured out what these words mean, but perhaps the vendors consider this acceptable usage and therefore don't block the sites that contain these "words"?

[sabotabby]

Oh, good point. I'd forgotten people have those.

[franklanguage.livejournal.com]

Well, I often write "sh¡t" so as to evade the spell checker.

[sabotabby]

My spellchecker still thinks I talk about ducks all the time.

[mad-bertha.livejournal.com]

Where I grew up, it wasn't something that was part of my everyday and so, coming to Australia in my late teens where it is used as punctuation, I went from not being able to hear the words without internally twitching, to being fine with it but unable to get the words out of my mouth, to swearing frequently in my 20s and 30s.

I trained myself out of it because I was beginning to notice that, in department meetings, it was done by local middle-aged men and the perhaps-unintended effect was to create a hostile environment to women from other countries who had just joined. It's not that these were squeamish women or anything, just that it was somehow part of the way the communication was structured so that the more established (and older) folk were firmly controlling the discussion. The other means are probably familiar to all - condescending responses that prematurely end discussions over an issue. It could have been that the men in question swore all the time, so they probably didn't even know they were swearing, but the cumulative effect, along with the patronising attitudes, were that the women in question started skipping meetings. The more established (and local) women simply ignored it or the impression was that they probably would join in a different context.

I wasn't even aware that the swearing was contributing, I had become so used to it. But once these people from overseas pointed it out, and I observed the meetings more closely, I grew more and more reluctant to have it in my life, mainly because there have been occasions when I wished I had more control over the habit.

I'm fine with it generally, particularly in social situations, but I tend to be suspicious when certain types of people (especially men) do it in specific contexts.

I personally like 'freaking,' even though that's unkind to freaks... and you're absolutely right, what's the point of typing the symbol in rather than using the actual word, it doesn't really camouflage it anyway.

ed: oh, and I HATE the c-word. Yes, I can't type it and that's because it somehow brings out all the rage in me when I see or hear it. I think I still attach a lot of women-hate in that word.

[sabotabby]

I used to have an aversion to the c-word and then I started watching a lot of British TV and yeah, I've developed immunity. But I'm careful about where and under what context I type it.

[ironed_orchid]

It's probably a good thing I don't have all my icons on lj anymore, otherwise I would be so tempted to gratuitously use this one.

[sabotabby]

Obligatory:

[ironed_orchid]

He's not wrong.

[mad-bertha.livejournal.com]

HAHAHA, okay, building up immunity as this thread expands!

Context is important - not feeling anger here but definitely white-hot when thrown at me by my now-ex-husband. Maybe it's because I usually hear it coming from men and maybe if I hear more women say it, it'll feel less like a woman-hating cudgel.

[ironed_orchid]

I hate the way it is used as the worst ever thing you can call a person, because being a woman and having woman parts is the worst ever thing a person could be. When that is the only way people say c---, then I agree with you, it's awful.

When people use it as just another swear word, and even as a term of endearment, then it loses that edge. In my experience, this varies in English speaking countries and between classes in those countries.

There are words I find utterly revolting which people use without feeling the need to censor, and so I sympathize with your reaction.

[sabotabby]

Same.

[mad-bertha.livejournal.com]

I think that it's actually been a good thing to hear it in other contexts. I think I know which UK shows you might mean where it's not used the same way. I'm fine and laugh with those. OTH, I turned on the in-game word filter when I saw the c-word and 'gay' used derogatorily - more to stop myself turning my gaming into mini soapbox sessions.

I was quite sincere though - the exchange above made me laugh and the more we have people using the words in that knowing appropriative way, the better.

[sabotabby]

I can see that. Wow. I'm sorry.

[matrixmann]

Indoctrination that you're not allowed to do it.
Think that simply is as it is.
But, otherwise, in the internet they often censor those words anyway, they don't even make it to an official post in the whole written form, so maybe people do something before which they got the feeling of that happens after anyway?

[sabotabby]

Weirdly, our software at work censors all kinds of things but not written swearing.

[matrixmann]

Well, one is better than another.
At least you don't see it that totally rarely, and I would guess by the ambitions of the big enterprises to be "family-friendly" and "child-friendly", this would be a necessity.

[kakodaimon.livejournal.com]

As someone recently guilty of using a string of expletive-allusory symbols on your journal, I enjoy the level of incoherence that (*@&# et al smear over the intended profanity. I hope to communicate extra confusion. But as to asterices between F and K, hmm. Maybe the author thinks that it adds a little classiness, and if so, how beautifully wrong.

[sabotabby]

See $#$%& or keyboard smashes make sense to me—I am cussing so hard I can't even. Asterisks don't make any sense as it's clear that I'm meant to understand which word is being referred to.

[angiereedgarner.livejournal.com]

I'm with Chuck Wendig... I can't express myself properly in life if I can't use the word fuck. I'm in the wrong company if it's a problem; I have no empathy or understanding for the opposite position. I can very much understand not wanting to be yelled at, but that is a completely different issue. I only wish I was equally clear about obscenity in visual art-- I need it to express myself, but am a weak and cringing person when it's showtime. There is peen on my easel right now.

Check out this fucking bullshit app--

http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2015/03/25/fuck-you-clean-reader-authorial-consent-matters/

[sabotabby]

There was an interesting point on BoingBoing about that. I disagree with your choice to censor but I will defend to the death your right to be a fucking idiot, or something to that degree.

[angiereedgarner.livejournal.com]

A hard thing about being a pro is that when you put your work out there, you lose control of it.

[sabotabby]

I'd love it if someone wrote fanfic or made porn of my work, but I'd be irritated if someone took the fucks out.

[kakodaimon.livejournal.com]

I grew up with casual, ubiquitous profanity and have similar feelings to you, but here's the way to understand the opposite position. Some people grow up only hearing profanity when someone completely loses it in rage, and the association between profanity and anger/aggression is something they can get over mentally but always kind of feels "there." That's not their fault, nor is it prudishness, so while you surely don't wish to self-censor it might be worth understanding. Again, one of my first phrases as a frustrated toddler was "fuck it," however, I personally think it's not always worth it for me if the other person will feel I am angrier than I am.

[sabotabby]

Oh, I get that people don't like profanity and I respect that even while I find it alien. What I question is why say the word at all, if that's the case?

[kakodaimon.livejournal.com]

We are on the same page; I was responding to angiereedgarner above.

[angiereedgarner.livejournal.com]

This is the best argument for sanitizing speech within personal conversations. Your comment provoked me to figure out why right now I am not willing to do that-- thank you very much!

[kakodaimon.livejournal.com]

Not that you need any justification, but the disturbing feeling of participating in Christianised language norms, discussed in the link you shared, is one that weighs heavily on my mind for sure. Then again, a lot of profanity is just as Christianised (references to hell, sexuality as something used to be provocative or vocally aggressive, all kinds of nonsense like this)... the whole debate might resemble a bit Church vs Teen Satanism, both sides reenforcing the same memes. I think I may have just talked myself into the very difficult quest of finding non-silly yet non-Christian swear words. Fortunately that leaves me with some decent Hebrew/Arabic/Aramaic profanity I guess.

[howlin-wolf-66.livejournal.com]

You expect LOGIC from people who would say these things? There's your mistake! :-)

[sabotabby]

Well, no. But maybe consistency? Also not that.

[rinue.livejournal.com]

Esquire now mostly spells fuck "fk," which I think is cutesy but they've taken a stand on it. Their point of view approximately seems to be that they use it often enough why not save the characters, or "let's not try to round this word out; let's let it be as sharp and to the point as it wants to be" or let's make it more like "ok" and less like "okay". I was irritated at first but have mostly acclimatized, mainly because I don't have enough energy to give a fk.

[sabotabby]

Cute but twee.

[princealberic.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't do it for the most part, but I can understand why some people do it. I've seen people say that they're triggered by those words, which makes some sense to me. I think that some people might think it's more polite for the same reason that they might think that "flipping" or "effing" are relatively more polite, and maybe it's a written equivalent of that. I think I've typed stuff like "f*cking" in the past because the people I was talking to did it and I just rolled with it. I sometimes type "f'ing", not to censor the word, but to shorten it because I'm lazy and sometimes I'm lazy and pissed off.

I tend to censor the word "b*tch" because I've heard a lot about how it can be triggering for people, though. And I tend to write out the full words (like "fucking" as opposed to "f*cking") on LJ unless I'm doing it on purpose to be snarkily twee, but I put cuts like "cut for language" since I don't want people to end up reading things they don't want to read.

But yes, it's baffling to me too when people are generally being rude and unpleasant to other people and still censor those words, it's like they're trying to sound polite while saying things that are not at all polite.

I should add that I have the language of a sailor on LJ but bizarrely, I almost never use any particularly rude language offline unless I'm extremely angry. Idk why.

[sabotabby]

I figure if they're on my LJ or FB, they already know I swear like a sailor and if they get triggered by it, they should read elsewhere. :)

I have serious difficulties writing the N-bomb though. I wrote a story where the two protagonists were black in the American South, and there was no way to avoid using it, and I cringed every time.

[ironed_orchid]

I remember reading a Michael Moorcock book written in the 90s and he used N----- and I discovered I am completely happy with that, particularly when I know the author is anti-censorship and not afraid to have characters say "fuck" when it works in context.

[sabotabby]

I feel weird starring anything other than place names and people in fiction; weirder than I'd feel writing the word. But I can totally understand why someone would.

[bitter-crimson.livejournal.com]

I don't do it myself, but I can understand using "f'ing" or "effing" if you're trying to make what you type approximate your speech as closely as possible and you're someone who says "effing" out loud? If I were going to use one of those myself I prefer "effing" because it's a closer phonetic representation, but I guess tastes vary. Anyway though, that'd be my guess for that, people who say "effing" out loud want to "say" it when they type as well.

But there's no similar verbal obfuscation for shit... I guess you could say like, shet or something? But no one says that. I guess people usually just say crap.

For bitch I guess there's betch, but again there's an easy way to type that.

I don't really get just inserting asterisks into a word when you obviously still intend the same word, though, no.

[sabotabby]

Yeah, I say things like "crap" at work—though I never would otherwise—because I do my best not to swear in front of the kids. I can't imagine saying "effing" out loud. I would be more likely to say "gosh-darn it all to heck" and be all ironic about it.

[jackspryte.livejournal.com]

I do it but I think I've seen it elsewhere and just copied it.

[sabotabby]

Hmm. Maybe some of it is reflexive/convention.

[ironed_orchid]

The only thing that comes to mind is unconscious self-policing.

[sabotabby]

That's my suspicion, really.

[neko-zoi.livejournal.com]

Maybe out of habit - there are some forums that do not allow these words and a post that has them is automatically removed? But mostly I thiink, it's just a silly trend thing they got from other people online, and they honestly think the are being up to date and smart and funny and polite altogether?

What do you think of people saying flip or frak?

[sabotabby]

I'd forgotten all about forums that did that.

I have no issues with flip or frak or gorram or anything like that. I think it's kind of cute. I say that kind of thing too sometimes but mainly when I'm deliberately trying to be nerdy. Smegging in particular needs to be used most often, as it's both geeky and, if you think about it, way cruder than most common obscenities.

[mistersmearcase.livejournal.com]

I hear people do this OUT LOUD. "Effing." What are you trying to convey? Do you want to curse or not? If you don't, just leave it out. If you do, just fucking say it like a normal adult.

[sabotabby]

I'm a bit more lenient with speech, since it does seem to have infiltrated itself into people's vocabulary, much as it sets my teeth on edge. But in writing it makes no sense.