A short rant on veils and the self/other divide

[sabotabby]

Well, will you look at this? I seem to have gotten myself into another one of those veil debates. And as luck would have it, there's a token plucky neo-conservative piping up with that brave LGF battle cry, "I will not be a dhimmi!"

(Can we start making neo-cons be dhimmis? Please? I'd love to hear the ring of little bells to alert me when I'm talking to someone with no moral conscience or shred of sanity. Although I can usually tell.)

It's funny how male dress seldom comes under such scrutiny. I remember a bit of controversy around Sikh turbans when I was a kid, but reason prevailed in that case. I have no faith that reason will prevail in the countless small fires raging around the wearing of various veils by various Muslim women living in Western countries.

Here is the rational response to veils. Forcing women to wear them is wrong, except in specific contexts*. Forcing women not to wear them is wrong, except in specific contexts**.

Western culture, however, seems to abandon reason when it comes to certain things: food, sex, war, and women's clothing. To give an example of the first—I'm a vegetarian. I'm not a fussy eater, and there are rare times that I can't find something to eat, especially in a restaurant. You'd be surprised at the number of people who feel threatened by my dietary choices, though, even while they're not directly affected by them. Simply asking a waiter if something contains meat has been taken by dinner companions, on occasion, as an invitation to lecture me about my health, my ethics, and my lifestyle. My choices were actively offensive to these people, who responded in an instinctual, irrational manner.

But that's a small inconvenience compared to being a woman living in the West and having to wear clothes outside the house. Almost any choice one makes will be considered unacceptable by someone, and subject for public debate (clothing debates being a subset of the belief that women's bodies, in general, are the business of the general public). Your shirt is too tight? You're a strumpet to the Christians. Your pants are too baggy? I've been lectured by Darleen-who's-not-a-dhimmi in the past about the inappropriateness of baggy pants. You're wearing makeup? You're a tool of the patriarchy to the radfems. A girl can't win. (And this is where the argument of the veil-as-feminist-act does hold some merit: It screams "my body is private; not for you." Which is not everyone's reason for wearing it, and besides, you'll end up with someone complaining that you're being "rude.")

Anne Applebaum, who was the subject of the original post, and Darleen both seem to feel that if a woman's clothing decisions make them uncomfortable, said woman does not have the right to make said clothing decision. This, in spite of the division between "self" and "not-self" that we were all supposed to understand by, oh, about age two. My impolite dinner companions did not recognize that my choice to not eat meat did not affect their choice to eat meat, and similarly, these women do not understand that other women's choices*** do not actually have an effect on them beyond making them feel uncomfortable. And while the West recognizes, at least on paper, the right to religious freedom, it does not recognize the right of Darleen to be accommodated at all times by those around her.

I think there are a lot of folks out there who would be well-served by repeating kindergarten. It's rude to stare at people just because they don't look like you. Just because you want someone else's oil something doesn't mean that you're entitled to it. Your own freedom stops at someone else's body.

I'm constantly astounded by how many people just don't get it.

* You should cover your hair when entering an Orthodox church or a mosque.
** Maybe being a lingerie model isn't the profession you should have chosen.
*** And yes, that choice is qualified by social pressures. As is the choice to wear makeup. And heels. But I don't see Darleen raging about those things.

Comments

[jk-fabiani.livejournal.com]

You should cover your hair when entering an Orthodox church or a mosque.

Note to self: stay out of Orthodox churches and mosques....'cept to see a Bosch painting or something...


that's a small inconvenience compared to being a woman living in the West and having to wear clothes outside the house.

Thou shalt cover the nipple & the pubes. Doing so with an american flag is acceptable. Duct tape, less so.

You can even trim them back a bit. (See also: LA-land)


[makeup] You're a tool of the patriarchy to the radfems.

"We make them paint their face and dance!" - John Lennon


Did you know that your ass cheeks blush like your face cheeks? So does your chest, which I think explains some of these low necklines...

In fact all mammals that blush do so in several places, and none of them have much fur in those places. (Kinda blows that great Mark Twain line about "Man being the only animal that blushes....or needs to...")

When someone is covering their blushing ass, how can we really know what they are thinking!

I'm constantly astounded by how many people just don't get it.

When I was about 20, about *cough* 20 years ago, I saw the most luscious legs come strolling by my bar table. I had just consumed about three long island ice teas and the animal appeal of those fine legs walking by proved too much for my alcohol feebled inhibitions. I ever so gently reached out my hand and stroked the stunning legs with one finger which was immediately followed by the owner of the stunning legs immediately grabbing my wrist and rotating it about 140 degrees so that my thumb was no longer facing its natural direction and my shoulder could not flex any further. The force of her manuver caused my body to spin around and out of the bar seat and not having any balance anyway, I came down to the floor face first while the woman retained her grip and the rotated angle of my hand for emphasis! She had also placed the loveliest of knees into the back of my neck. At which point she said something like "if you want to keep this arm, you wont do this again right" and I was persuaded immediately and quickly agreed. Much of the pain had brought me back to my senses. Ahh...youth. Turns out she got those legs from a lifetime of karate!

However, the experience which best taught me consensual behavior was in a gay bar. Some huge drunken leather queen took a strong liking to me and stuck his massive hand down the back of my jeans, and when I struggled, the lug picked me up with his hands, threw me over his shoulder yelling something about him liking a challenge. Men can be pretty rough sexually. I pretty much understood what it was like to be "manhandled" at that point. His friends rescued me fortunately.

Those two experiences were enough to teach me consensual behavior. I was still young, dumb, and full of cum, but I had learned!

[sabotabby]

I cut Straw some slack—some—if indeed he is hard of hearing and needs to lip-read. But even if that's the case, he should have handled the issue in a more sensitive manner. From the comments I read, it was impossible to distinguish whether he objected to the niqab because of his own physical challenges (in which case he might consider getting a translator) or because he's a racist.

I didn't know that ass-cheeks blushed. Seriously? That's awesome.

[burkesworks.livejournal.com]

If Jack Straw is hard of hearing, my name is Ludwig van Beethoven.

[sabotabby]

Since that wasn't his initial explanation (the words "barrier to integration" spring to mind), I'm guessing he can hear just fine.

[bike4fish.livejournal.com]

I"ve used the hypothetical example of a place where members of the culture find the wearing of clothing offensive (clothed people are hiding something, obviously). Do you think everyone who visits the place should go naked? Would you go naked? If you would, would you feel uncomfortable?

Now, there may be a few people who are really willing to follow "when in Rome..." for clothing... but the real test may be food. Witchity grubs? Dancing Shrimp? Whale? Lichen?

[sabotabby]

Someone brought up an interesting point in the thread, which was that most people would consider it acceptable to ask someone to wear more clothes for the sake of propriety or cultural sensitivity, whereas fewer would demand the reverse. I don't feel put out covering my hair to go to synagogue, even though I'm not religious, and I wouldn't wear a midriff-baring shirt to work, even if I might wear it around the house. But if my boss told me to show more cleavage or wear shorter skirts, it'd be grounds for a human rights complaint.

I'd suck it up and eat most things, while travelling outside of the First World, for the sake of cultural sensitivity. Although...eww, grubs.

[zingerella.livejournal.com]

But if you went to live in a naturist society, you'd have to leave the kneesocks at home. Or would you? Would you feel that the naturists (as the dominant culture in my hypothetical climate-controlled naturist society) had the right to ask you to go unclothed?

[sabotabby]

It's hard to say, since the culture is hypothetical, and because there are a number of factors that play into analyzing when one is or is not in Rome, so to speak.

The first factor is choice. In the West, one has the choice to avoid attending a synagogue (family pressures notwithstanding), but one does not have a choice to avoid going to work. So if I don't like covering my hair, I can stay out of synagogues, and hair-covering is a reasonable request for the synagogue to make. Conversely, if covering my hair is an arbitrary requirement of my job (as opposed to, say, having to wear a hairnet at a fast food joint), my boss is being unreasonable.

The second factor has to do with historical relations between cultures. Because the First World politically, militarily, and economically dominates the Third, there's a power imbalance at work in these discussions. There's not an automatic equivalent between me wearing a hijab if I get a job in Dubai and a Muslim woman in the UK having to take off her hijab in order to keep her job there.

So if the prosperity of the naturist society was based on the exploitation of the clothed world, wearing my kneesocks could conceivably be an expression of anti-imperialism, personal autonomy, and/or a belief in secular pluralism. However, if the naturist society was the dominated group, taking off my clothes would be the correct choice as a respectful outsider. But, had I been born in the naturist society, I would have to wear kneesocks in order to protest their rigid (lack of) dress clothes.

[smhwpf.livejournal.com]

But don't you realise, they're Muslims, so the normal rules don't apply. Becuase some Muslims are terrorists, all Muslims' clothing choices (indeed all their choices) become public property. If Muslim women are allowed to wear veils, then they won't integrate, and if they don't integrate, then some young Muslim men might start hating us for our freedoms, and blow us up. And the fundamental right of all of us not to be blown up must come before the so-called civil liberties of the few.

God, New Labour logic is wierd.

[sabotabby]

And of course, that's where the "uncomfortable" feeling stems from. As jk_fabiani's cartoon so aptly points out, we Westerners are not universally uncomfortable with masks.

My friend Sultana, she of the awesome hijab-as-feminist-statement article that I posted awhile ago, snarked that people thought she was packing an AK-47 under it.

[crosley-bendix.livejournal.com]

I missed that post. I would appreciate it if you were to post a link to it.

[otfrom.livejournal.com]

There is an interesting story in the Grauniad (UK) talking about how the biggest barrier to muslims integrating into UK society is white people, yet all we are hearing in the UK media are calls for muslim women to remove their niqabs.

Also, the BNP nazis in England are caught with a huge pile of explosive materials and a Rocket Launcher and we haven't heard anything about that either.

[sabotabby]

That certainly jives with my experience here in Canada. The whole idea of "integration" disturbs me, because it assumes a default white secularized Christian culture to which everyone else must conform. No one's yet managed to explain to me why this default is superior or desirable.

Ugh, BNP. What a bunch of wankers.

[99catsaway.livejournal.com]

I think you tapped into some really good observations here, as did some responders in that thread. Why is it that Muslim clothes especially are dissected, while we are having no similar discussion on the sikh turban? is the turban not part of the discussion because it belongs to a man, or because it belongs to a non-Muslim? I can't decide. I think the OP in that thread is really self-centered.

Also, women really can't win with clothing. I've always been exasperated by this.

[sabotabby]

I'm guessing it's a gender thing. It's not like stupid white folk are able to distinguish between Sikhs and Muslims.

I think the OP in that thread is really self-centered.

The OP was Ilyka, who I think was quite rationally dissecting an article by Anne Applebaum. Who is quite self-centred.

[apperception.livejournal.com]

Because it makes you uncomfortable. I’m sorry, I don’t accept that, and neither should anyone else who believes in a free society.

That was put well and should shut any reasonable person up right away.

In other words, it'll never end.

My impolite dinner companions did not recognize that my choice to not eat meat did not affect their choice to eat meat, and similarly, these women do not understand that other women's choices

I've run into the same problem as a vegetarian, and just generally as an eater.

When I first became vegetarian, my philistine family didn't even know what it meant. "Waaaaa? Ya don't even eat CHICKEN? Heah, have a meatbawl." I remember a jackass uncle being pleased when I told him I still ate fish sometimes. "Why does that matter?" I asked. "Because otherwise you'd be one of those freaky vegans." As if it affects him.

Like all paternalism, it's misplaced. I don't believe that adults need to be saved from themselves. Just as I make the choice as an adult to be vegetarian (I was in my 20's, for crissake), it's not like Muslim women are not adult enough to make decisions for themselves. Whatever that decision is, so long as it doesn't negatively impact anyone - hurt feelings don't count - they're entitled to that choice. People who say otherwise should consider moving to countries where people have less freedom of personal choice; they'd probably fit in better there.

One more anecdote about food, because I love talking about food and the idiots at work. I'm careful about hygiene with food, because I've gotten food poisoning a couple of times (klebsiela infection doesn't go away with some Imodium). But every month we have birthday celebrations in the lunch room here. I hate going to these things, because I dislike about 25% of my co-workers, and I'm not a huge fan of really sweet cake. After this incident, there was another reason.

Guinea Asshole (the cologne-drenched dickhole who sits across from me and complains about all the stuff he has to do when he really has no responsibilities at all) is in charge of cutting the cake and distributing it. He gave me my piece of cake, and I asked him for an extra piece for my co-worker Colleen, who was at her desk, busy working on a job, and so couldn't make it.

As he's serving the cake, it falls off the plate and lands on one of the chairs. He then takes the piece of cake off the chair with his hand (which I know he never washes before handling food, because other people have complained), puts it back on the plate, and hands it to me. I say, "I'm not giving that to Colleen, it fell on the chair." He yells, "Oh C'MON!" and just throws the plate on the table in front of me.

Even the people who were sitting around me thought it was rude. So I took my piece of cake and gave it to Colleen.

I always hear this guy -- who's a moron and, strangely, very strangely, a conservative douche -- going on about people's choices and preferences. He hates that there are people who are vegetarians. He hates that there are people who wash their hands before eating. He hates that people want to eat clean food. He hates that other people don't like to sit next to smokers in restaurants while they're eating. He gets into conflicts with people in office all the time over this stuff.

It's a coincidence that all these attitudes hang together in one person. There are a lot of people like this around here who complain about the same list of things and pick fights. They're intolerant.

I'll admit to being intolerant myself. I hate tons of stuff and go around grumbling to myself. But I would never impose my preferences upon other people, nor would I give people a hard time. Guinea Asshole bathes in cologne every morning. Do I complain about it to him? Nope. Do I demand that he wash his hands before eating his own food? Nope. Do I lecture him about it, or make faces to him, or say "C'MON" to him in front of a group of people when it has nothing to do with me? Nope.

It's really ironic how so much of this criticism comes from a "rah-rah America" or a "we're better than the benighed ragheads" approach, and yet if these people had their way there'd be no civil liberties to speak of.

[sabotabby]

See, now, people who drench themselves in cologne? That is a workplace issue. I'm unlucky enough to have crappy hearing and crappy eyesight but a really keen sense of smell. Lucky me. I wouldn't be able to work with someone who reeked. And that's not even taking into account people who're allergic to perfume.

I get a fair bit of crap for not liking sugary things. I'll have cake once in awhile, and I do like cheesecake, but I don't have much of a sweet tooth. So when someone brings in something fattening and sweet, I get, "What, are you on a diet? You don't need to lose weight." Which is not the point.

And hey, I'm all for educated intolerance. It's the other sort that I don't like.

[apperception.livejournal.com]

I got a headache one day from the cologne, but I still didn't say anything. It's not my style, even though maybe it should be.

I'm always turning down sweets and stuff, too. What kind of food do you prefer? Salty, sour, bitter? What do you prefer to drink alcohol-wise?

I ask only because people tend to have food and drink preferences in logical clusters. Like I'm a beer/seafood/salty-flavor kind of person, whereas my ex constantly craved sweet stuff and didn't like beer very much.

[sabotabby]

I think I have really numb tastebuds. I'm like the opposite of a super-taster. So I have an insane tolerance for spice, I like salty and bitter things (when I get cravings, it's for pickles and olives), and yes, beer.

[apperception.livejournal.com]

So you have a really acute sense of smell but not of taste? That's odd.

I'm told tolerance for spicy food comes just from eating spicy food. It burns out the receptors in your tongue after awhile. Which is probably why I like to snack on Thai red dragons or habañero peppers while I eat. The rest of the taste buds work fine, tho!

[sabotabby]

That could be, especially since my tolerance for spice seems to have increased.

[goodlookinout.livejournal.com]

I agree.

I have no faith that reason will prevail in the countless small fires raging around the wearing of various veils by various Muslim women living in Western countries.

Agreed. Because it's women's bodies we're talking about. And we all know how the West loves to excuse actions by being under the guise of liberating "oppressed" women.

[sabotabby]

I need to dig up some of that old WWI propaganda that talked about the need to save the French womenfolk from the evil rapist Germans. Which, as you know, was the entire point of the whole adventure. That's why wars are fought—to save the women.

[ygg13.livejournal.com]

I have to ask... Is your icon a symbol of the vast Gay Muslim Straight Edge Conspiracy?

[sabotabby]

Close! It's the Gay-Islamofascist-Emo conspiracy.

[lopukhov.livejournal.com]

It's a razorblade :)

[zingerella.livejournal.com]

Y'know what I'm getting really bored of? I'm getting really bored of all the people who say "But the Qu'ran doesn't even require women to wear the veil! That's a misreading!" as if 1) loose or culturally coloured interpreataions of sacred texts were somehow new and unique to Islam, and 2) textual accuracy was somehow relevant to people's ethnicity and/or their religious choices.

Because the veil is not just a religious issue. It's a cultural issue and a political one and a social one, among other things. Whether to wear the veil, I suspect, has as much to do with identity politics as it does with religious orthodoxy. And who am I to tell anyone how to practise their identity politics?

You should cover your hair when entering an Orthodox church or a mosque.
Yes, because I am neither Muslim nor Orthodox. However, if I were a member of one of these religions I might feel entitled to make a statement by refusing to do so. And that would be my perogative as a member of the culture—as a practitioner of one of those religions I would be within the boundaries of propriety to examine the tenets of my religion to determine whether they really called for female believers to cover their heads, and decide how to act based on those tenets. The challenges that come from within the culture are the result of people exercising their own freedom. Challenges that come from the dominant culture, however, are the result of the dominant culture imposing its standards on everyone else (thereby attempting to restrict everyone's freedom to the freedom to conform to the paradigms of the dominant culture.)

[sabotabby]

Whether to wear the veil, I suspect, has as much to do with identity politics as it does with religious orthodoxy.

Yes, yes, and yes. And as to your last paragraph, you bring up the point—far less clumsily—that I was trying to make in our hypothetical nekkid people example.

[lopukhov.livejournal.com]

Oft I've felt the urge to run around in a niqab, just for one day, so I can get that STARE.


There's a book called Politics of Piety by Saba Mahmood, that talks about the veil.

Besides, who the fuck is Darleen to define patriarchy for us? Shit!

[sabotabby]

Remember when that woman went to Afghanistan and hid a wee camera under her burqa? It'd be interesting to do that in North America.

Darleen is one of those "Sure, I'm a feminist, but you silly hairy-legged radicals already have all the rights you need, and in fact, you could probably do with a few less. I believe in choice for women, as long as that choice involves staying home and being barefoot and pregnant."